IRC log of the meeting:

21:01 -!- Crush [n=Crush@pop1-1489.catv.wtnet.de] has joined #tmwart
21:01 < Crush> have you already started? i hope i'm not too late
21:03 < Crush> noone here?
21:03 < Crush> no artist meeting this thursday?
21:04 < MrLindeijer> Welcome.
21:04 < MrLindeijer> Yes it should be now, but Rotonen already announced he could be a bit late.
21:04 < MrLindeijer> I'm not sure about ElvenProgrammer.
21:04 < Crush> ah at least someone else. i thought i would have to do the meeting alone :)
21:05 <@Rotonen> :)
21:05 <@Rotonen> not THAT late
21:05 <@Rotonen> just got here
21:05 < MrLindeijer> Ok :)
21:06 <@Rotonen> people can start with status reports if they have achieved anything :)
21:06 <@Rotonen> i'm fixing dinner simultaneously so semi-afk
21:06 < Crush> okay, so...
21:07 < Crush> i hereby declare the woodland tileset as ready for mapping
21:08 < Crush> although i will for sure improve something here and there i won't change the layout anymore
21:08 <@Rotonen> and conveniently chetic has reappeared into the scheme.. :]
21:08 < Crush> that means that you can start building maps with it nowe
21:08 < Crush> i'm currently working at a guide about how to use the tileset
21:08 < Crush> you can find it on the wiki:
21:08 <@Rotonen> MrLindeijer: what about the current progression with tiled
21:08 < Crush> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/Woodland_Tileset_Mapping_Guide
21:08 < Crush> (many colorful pictures :) )
21:09 <@Rotonen> i'm getting a little worried about the conceptual scene being stalled
21:09 <@Rotonen> since pixellation is going on nicely, no one is paying attention to the actual world building
21:10 < Crush> what do you mean with that exactly? do you mean the background information? or the concept art department?
21:10 <@Rotonen> both
21:10 <@Rotonen> the background writing process stalled a long time ago
21:11 < Crush> i already wrote some small things here and there
21:11 <@Rotonen> but now the conceptual development has kinda stalled too
21:11 <@Rotonen> well, i was expecting to have about 7 kingdoms to be written by now, but.. :)
21:11 <@Rotonen> i was also expecting to have a playerset and not have any tileset improvements
21:12 < MrLindeijer> Rotonen: Uhm Tiled is pretty slow to progress due to me still having too many other activities.
21:12 <@Rotonen> as long as the quantity of usable work flowing in is sufficient, i'm not starting a massive "battle against the tide"
21:12 < MrLindeijer> We should commit the forest tileset to CVS then.
21:12 <@Rotonen> MrLindeijer: is the cvs stable so we could do a snapshot for mappers?
21:13 < MrLindeijer> I'm not sure what would be the added value, well besides the stamp brush functionality that's still a bit weird to use and only works on one layer.
21:14 < Crush> random flood fill would be very nice
21:14 <@Rotonen> well i'm going to host a snapshot as soon as the brush thingy works properly
21:14 < MrLindeijer> We're already hosting nightlies.
21:14 <@Rotonen> ah, ok
21:15 < MrLindeijer> It seems we're not linking to them from the website though. :/
21:15 < MrLindeijer> So even I don't know where they are, heh.
21:16 < MrLindeijer> I'll ask biggeruniverse. Also, as soon as MediaWiki 1.5 is released we will transform the website to a wiki to allow for easier updating and adding guides.
21:17 < MrLindeijer> Yeah I understand especially with these grass tile variations that a random brush would be handy.
21:17 < MrLindeijer> Note though that random tiles will kind of break the flood fill, heh.
21:18 < MrLindeijer> Unless it's also made to operate on sets of tiles, but I think that goes a bit too far still.
21:18 < Crush> thats true. but as long as there is an undo function i don't worry about that.
21:18 < MrLindeijer> Ok.
21:19 < MrLindeijer> What's the last we heard from Irukard?
21:20 < Crush> that's not much :)
21:22 < Crush> something else?
21:23 < Crush> when not: maybe we could discuss about that swordfighting style thing?
21:23 < MrLindeijer> The videos by Talaroc?
21:23 < Crush> about the discussion if we want the fighting look more realistic or more exegrated
21:25 < Crush> no opinions about that topic?
21:25 < MrLindeijer> I think it should look cool, and I think that means making it axaggerated.
21:26 < MrLindeijer> exaggerated*
21:26 < Crush> that's my opinion, too.
21:26 < Crush> however that ex' word is spelled :)
21:26 < MrLindeijer> Well I checked. :P
21:27 < Crush> but it doesn't seem as if enough people are here to have a decision about that
21:28 < MrLindeijer> I think we should be identifying key frames in the videos by Talaroc.
21:28 < Crush> can you do that?
21:28 < MrLindeijer> I wonder whether I saved those and where if so...
21:29 < MrLindeijer> I'll try at least one.
21:30 < MrLindeijer> I guess I'll go download them.
21:38 < MrLindeijer> Ah I remember now, I was at my parents when I looked at these movies.
21:39 < MrLindeijer> Warg so incredibly dark, and suxor slow playback.
21:40 < maci> which movie?
21:40 < MrLindeijer> All of them. :P
21:40 < maci> ?
21:40 < maci> all of what?
21:40 < MrLindeijer> Talaroc's movies.
21:41 < maci> i see
21:41 < maci> the sword stuff
21:41 < MrLindeijer> mplayer does better, I think totem sucks because gstreamer still sucks.
21:41 < maci> btw have ou seen the zelda stuff posted by ktm
21:41 < MrLindeijer> I don't think so.
21:41 < maci> you should
21:43 < maci> http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?t=987&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
21:44 < MrLindeijer> Wow Zelda had a flame thrower? Can't really remember that, heh.
21:45 -!- nayr [n=nayr@24-50-57-75.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #tmwart
21:45 -!- Bertram [n=yohann@80.125.127.91] has joined #tmwart
21:45 < Bertram> hi
21:45 < MrLindeijer> Zelda with 4 players!?
21:46 < maci> MrLindeijer: its the magic stick thingy
21:46 < maci> there was one for ice as well
21:46 < MrLindeijer> I guess this isn't SNES?
21:46 < maci> that the zelda for gba .. it has 4 player support
21:47 < MrLindeijer> Ah.
21:47 < maci> tho the cartidrge contains the snes game as well :p
21:48 -!- nayr [n=nayr@24-50-57-75.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has left #tmwart ["Leaving"]
21:48 <@Rotonen> sorry i was on the phone
21:48 < maci> np
21:49 <@Rotonen> i guess there isn't that much to talk about this week
21:50 <@Rotonen> i've expressed my concern for the continuance of conceptual development
21:50 < MrLindeijer> maci: Ok I've seen them, though I don't see their significance.
21:50 < maci> MrLindeijer: you mean? you dont think such effects simpl rock?
21:51 < Bertram> Have you already discussed of woodlands, dried river and character sprites progresses ?
21:51 < MrLindeijer> maci: As Crush noted, those are (or at least seem to me too) pre-drawn sprite animatinos.
21:51 < MrLindeijer> animations*
21:51 < MrLindeijer> Bertram: Woodlands will be added to CVS, ready for mapping.
21:51 <@ElvenProgrammer> hmm maybe i'm a bit late?
21:51 < Bertram> MrLindeijer: Did you also get a hand to the praticle system ?
21:51 < Bertram> particle*
21:51 < maci> yeah
21:51 < maci> we need dust
21:51 < maci> a desert needs dust
21:52 <@Rotonen> ah yeah, the particle system
21:52 < Bertram> maci: very true
21:52 <@Rotonen> wasn't it Crush working on it?
21:52 < MrLindeijer> Yes.
21:52 < Crush> yes i were
21:53 < Bertram> Crush: Do you have a piece of code to lend ?
21:53 <@Rotonen> mind doing a non-winapi test app with it or actually fuse it into tmw to show how it works?
21:53 <@Rotonen> a separate cvs fork should do it
21:53 < Crush> of course. i could give you the source anytime. but i wanted to do so as soon as magic and other things that requiree fancy effects become a concern
21:54 <@Rotonen> well i'd like to see how we're going to do fluids
21:54 < Bertram> Rotonen: Right
21:54 < Crush> but i don't know any other interface bnut winapi. but don't worry it is really easy to implement
21:54 <@Rotonen> since i was thinking about magic/mana/whatever acting like a magnetic fluid within a magnetic field
21:54 <@Rotonen> since i was thinking about magic/mana/whatever acting like a magnetic fluid within a magnetic field
21:54 < Bertram> Crush: Maybe I, MrLindeijer, ElvenProgrammer will help for the sdl, gl translation
21:55 <@Rotonen> Bertram: that a negative or a positive right? :P
21:55 < Bertram> positive
21:55 < Crush> other proposal: i give you the sourcecode and explain you how to implement it
21:55 -!- m[a]tt [n=m[a]tt@p5497629E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit]
21:55 <@Rotonen> yeah, everyone should do what they're most fit for
21:55 < maci> eah fluids would be cool
21:55 < Crush> the class interfaces aren't that complicated.
21:56 < Bertram> Rotonen: I feel we should see how we're going to work together on magic, particle, and how we're gonna code effects on sprites generally
21:56 <@ElvenProgrammer> shouldn't be that hard if an artist implemented it ;P
21:56 < maci> ElvenProgrammer: dont be rude ;)
21:56 <@ElvenProgrammer> ok
21:57 < Crush> have you ever worked with the stl list class?
21:57 < MrLindeijer> We use STL extensively.
21:58 < Crush> that's good.
21:58 < Bertram> the particle position handling in a list isn't the hard part, I think. I feel the physics part is.
21:59 < Crush> i think i will send you the sourcecode and a detailed documentation over the developer mailing list
21:59 < MrLindeijer> Ok.
21:59 <@Rotonen> i think we should go that extra bit on effects and make sure they don't stand out but that they're also integrated.. well.. everywhere
21:59 < Bertram> great
21:59 <@Rotonen> as maci said, dust/sand flying around on the desert would be nice
22:00 < maci> Rotonen: yup maybe with wind directions changing from time to time
22:00 < Bertram> Rotonen: right. Let begin with little things at first. And we'll have much more to do on the server.
22:00 < maci> tho wind directions need to be implemented on the server i think
22:00 < Bertram> I wanted to know one other thing.
22:00 <@Rotonen> elven said that i shoudn't concern myself with the technical difficulties on stuff
22:01 <@Rotonen> i'm trying to set the final level of neatness here
22:01 < Bertram> ok
22:01 <@Rotonen> not talking about what should be done here
22:01 < Bertram> Well, I wanted to know if the map development would deserve another channel and special meetings.
22:02 < Bertram> As we have devs, and artists, maybe we need mappers
22:02 <@Rotonen> i consider mappers as artists
22:02 <@Rotonen> i don't think we have pure mappers at the moment
22:02 < Crush> mapping is a really easy task. i wonder why it is so difficult to find volunteers.
22:03 < Bertram> ok. Then, I open a subject. The World mapping management.
22:03 <@Rotonen> quality mapping requires quite an extra bit of effort and "the eye"
22:03 <@Rotonen> Bertram: i think we should have a recruiting campaign
22:03 < Crush> we could post a news that we are searching for mappers
22:04 <@Rotonen> could we perhaps promise free t-shirts for contributors ? :D
22:04 < maci> heh
22:04 < Bertram> We should also have a clear view of what should be done next about maps. Like a Maps Roadmap.
22:04 <@Rotonen> "i worked my *** off to map for tmw and all i got was this lousy t-shirt"
22:04 < maci> mankind does everything for free tshirt
22:04 < Crush> or we could just ask some people ingame. those who are palying the game can at least contribute something.
22:04 < Bertram> lol
22:05 <@Rotonen> but before we have a clear maps roadmap, we have to have them conceptualized on some level
22:05 <@Rotonen> on the long run the world is going to be so huge and complex that it's not even fitting into my head right now
22:05 < Bertram> Rotonen: What is the next step in conceptualisation ?
22:05 < maci> Rotonen: we could just rip off everything from google earth and build tmw around it :P
22:06 < MrLindeijer> The mapping team would belong to be more general team for content management I guess.
22:06 < Bertram> agreed
22:06 < Bertram> good view
22:06 <@Rotonen> Bertram: the next step would be to finalize tulimshar and move onto the neighbouring countries
22:06 <@Rotonen> but we already have a green tileset
22:06 <@Rotonen> which kinda partially defines SOME PLACE SOMEWHERE :)
22:07 <@Rotonen> but WHAT AND WHERE? :]
22:07 <@Rotonen> and since i'm out of ideas at the moment for some bizarre reason, i'd need a great idea to show me a decently good direction :)
22:07 < Bertram> Rotonen: I suggested to link a big cave, which entrance would be in the eastern desert to a forest
22:08 < Crush> the old cave intermission method?
22:08 <@Rotonen> too shady of a transition
22:08 < Bertram> I think not
22:08 <@Rotonen> i think we need a savannah in between
22:08 <@Rotonen> which was my idea
22:08 <@Rotonen> blah i'll just make a ranting post in the concentration thread
22:08 <@Rotonen> which should set some things straight
22:09 < Bertram> All the dark and despair, and then light and nature. Maximal effect, but maybe the cave should get you to a savannah
22:09 < Bertram> Suggestions anyway
22:09 <@Rotonen> i don't like the "one way from place a to place b" approach
22:09 < Crush> so we need an intermission tileset between desert and forest
22:09 <@Rotonen> i'd like to have a complex network of roads and pathways
22:09 <@Rotonen> i'd like to have a complex network of roads and pathways
22:09 <@Rotonen> yeah, we do need that
22:10 < Bertram> Rotonen: We have the direction
22:10 < Crush> we start with desert ground tiles, desert ground tiles with some grass between
22:10 < Crush> then with a little bit more grass
22:10 < Crush> and in the end normal grass tiles
22:10 <@Rotonen> i'd like the desert to be finished first
22:10 <@Rotonen> it's in a rather confused state at the moment
22:11 <@Rotonen> i think this time i'll just reach more people on the forums
22:11 < Bertram> Rotonen: What needs more work ?
22:11 <@Rotonen> let's hope i don't get wrapped up in school and forget
22:11 <@Rotonen> Bertram: for example we don't have the tiles to build the capital city
22:11 < Bertram> Isn't there work on a castle ?
22:11 <@Rotonen> nor do we have the tiles to build any reasonable city for that matter either :P
22:12 <@Rotonen> there is
22:12 <@Rotonen> but the castle is only one part
22:12 <@Rotonen> then i
22:12 < Bertram> So, we need walls, windows, city tiles
22:12 <@Rotonen> i'd like to see more desert things
22:12 <@Rotonen> so i guess we could divide pixel artists into 3 teams
22:13 <@Rotonen> city - desert - savannah transition into green
22:13 < Bertram> humm, good idea :)
22:13 <@Rotonen> this is the tiem and place to oppose to my ideas before i begin my vendetta
22:13 < Bertram> vendetta ?
22:13 <@Rotonen> vendetta
22:13 < Crush> i could do the intermission tiles. i already got some ideas how to do it
22:14 < Bertram> Crush: good.
22:14 < Crush> that means: as long as noone gets the idea to change the ground tile of the desert
22:14 < Crush> that could ruin everything
22:14 < Crush> so if you want more different ground tiles in the desert
22:14 < Crush> or you want to change it
22:15 < Crush> do it before i start with it
22:15 <@Rotonen> Crush: well if you improve that yourself (do more sand tiles, like it has been done with the grass)
22:15 <@Rotonen> i'd like to avoid monotonous surfaces
22:15 < Bertram> didn't someone do it ?
22:15 < Bertram> with the dried river ?
22:15 <@Rotonen> iru
22:15 <@Rotonen> but i'm not 100% sure of that status
22:15 < Crush> shoulod i use the ground tiles from dried river as a base?
22:15 <@Rotonen> and i'd like to get a pixellation manager
22:16 <@Rotonen> and concentrate on conceptualization
22:16 <@Rotonen> but who would step up since i don't think using elven's time on this is wise
22:16 <@Rotonen> i'd like to have a "committee" of our main pixel artists manage it themselves
22:16 <@Rotonen> the way it's started to be on the forums already
22:16 <@Rotonen> you really do support each other and make each other grow
22:18 < Bertram> the pixel master could change every certain time.
22:18 < Bertram> Or maybe everyone can do it "democratically"
22:18 < Crush> i don't think that such a hirarchy is necessary
22:18 < Bertram> Do it as you feel it
22:19 < Bertram> So maybe let keep that kind of comittee. Artists have a great dynamic together
22:21 <@Rotonen> i'm not a big author on pixel art and i fail to spot most stuff on the first glance
22:21 <@Rotonen> mostly i can just tell whether or not i approve of something
22:21 < Bertram> Rotonen: anyway, if you want to give the pixellation manager work to the comittee, we should see what you exactly mean by it.
22:22 < Bertram> Rotonen: You're the art head. If think it's your job looking if things are taking a good direction, listening to each point of views
22:22 <@Rotonen> indeed
22:23 <@Rotonen> for now i think i'm just going to let the pixellation front pretty much work on it's own
22:23 <@Rotonen> my initial idea was to have the areas conceptually done to a far extent before pixellation even took place
22:23 <@Rotonen> but i think this works too :P
22:23 <@Rotonen> this way it's more exciting since even i don't know what the world will look like
22:24 < Bertram> Rotonen: true
22:24 <@Rotonen> and since we lack deadlines, this is an excellent project to have a relaxed attitude like this
22:24 < Bertram> As for now, let's summarize the main ideas :
22:25 < Bertram> 1. A map recruitment campaign ;) ?
22:26 < Crush> yes, go on
22:26 < Bertram> 2. Three groups of pixelers : Desert town, woods, and savannah.
22:26 <@Rotonen> woods?
22:26 <@Rotonen> desert town - desert scenery - savannah
22:26 < Bertram> 3. Work on the particle system.
22:26 < Bertram> Rotonen: oh, yes indeed
22:26 <@Rotonen> particle system isn't a priority at all
22:26 <@Rotonen> but it's just so overly nifty.. :)
22:27 < Crush> no it isn't. not before we got a magic system at all.
22:27 < Crush> it is useless anyway before that
22:27 < Bertram> So what could give me a three ?
22:27 <@Rotonen> or support for anything dynamical before that
22:27 <@Rotonen> animated tiles etc
22:27 < Bertram> ok
22:28 <@Rotonen> although, hitting effects with particles?
22:28 < maci> juo
22:28 < Bertram> Anyway, let me call you all by now, the "Committee"
22:28 < maci> some dust :)
22:28 < MrLindeijer> Gore! Muahaha.
22:28 <@Rotonen> indeed, gore
22:28 < maci> gore?
22:28 < maci> schmul
22:28 < Bertram> MrLindeijer: We could speak about particles system in the next dev meeting
22:28 < MrLindeijer> Yes, blood, body parts, organs!
22:29 < Bertram> ...
22:29 <@Rotonen> and the monkey friend of the organ grinder! :]
22:29 < Bertram> I wanted to have details also on the character sprites
22:29 <@Rotonen> anyone heard anything from talaroc latey?
22:29 < MrLindeijer> Bertram: We could but it will be for 0.0.18 earliest anyway.
22:30 <@Rotonen> *lately
22:30 <@Rotonen> i'd like to see our own server before particle effects
22:30 < MrLindeijer> Me too.
22:30 < Bertram> MrLindeijer: np. But details on the highest priority tiles are welcome anyway ;)
22:31 <@Rotonen> our client is on a sufficient level at the moment, imho
22:31 < MrLindeijer> What do you mean?
22:31 <@Rotonen> concentrate on the server, please
22:31 < Bertram> MrLindeijer: I guess, particles will take the second place in our meeting
22:31 < Bertram> Rotonen: We will
22:31 < Bertram> I hope ;)
22:31 <@Rotonen> but for that i think we have to go over the realtime/not/pseudo-realtime again
22:31 < MrLindeijer> Sunday release is first, and I think server dev startup should be second, and third the game design document I guess.
22:31 < MrLindeijer> Particles system... well fourth if we get to it. :P
22:32 < Bertram> lol
22:32 < MrLindeijer> Is the artist meeting concluded with this?
22:32 <@Rotonen> well
22:32 < MrLindeijer> Cause then I can put up the log and we can continue our business in #manaworld. :)
22:33 <@Rotonen> let's define "committee", shall we? :]
22:33 < MrLindeijer> Ok you tell me when it's over. :)
22:33 < Bertram> Rotonen: Who would you like to see in the three groups, without any obligations, I mean ? ;)
22:33 < MrLindeijer> I'm not going to be in any committee.
22:33 <@Rotonen> is it fair to just raise some people into charge or should we go for equality?
22:33 <@Rotonen> MrLindeijer: i'm going for a committee for the reason that it's said to be impossible to produce quality games with a committee
22:34 <@Rotonen> although half-life was designed by a committee
22:34 < MrLindeijer> Haha.
22:34 < Bertram> eh.
22:34 <@Rotonen> well let's just call it a committee for the heck of it and let it function in a different manner
22:35 <@Rotonen> more like a "tribunal of pixel artists"
22:35 < Bertram> Rotonen: Btw, is there a respect yourself and the other thread in the forums ?
22:35 <@Rotonen> like throwing a bone (the work assignment) to a pack of jackals (the artists) and seeing what happens (the art)
22:35 < Bertram> lool
22:35 < MrLindeijer> As long as no lengthy textual documents need to be passed around.
22:36 < MrLindeijer> Hehehe.
22:36 <@Rotonen> i should probably take this more seriously, but i'm just too happy and relaxed for that :]
22:36 <@Rotonen> Bertram: could be :P
22:37 <@Rotonen> i guess this is over
22:37 < Bertram> Rotonen: I think you should gather what has already been said in that way, and make it from that
22:37 < Bertram> ok for me :)
22:37 <@Rotonen> i'll express myself later on the forums
22:37 < Bertram> thanks all for reading and even answering my non-artistical point of view
22:37 <@Rotonen> opinions seldom hurt
22:38 < Bertram> ok
22:38 < Bertram> Rotonen: I know you can handle it perfectly
22:38 <@Rotonen> :]
22:38 <@Rotonen> i still don't get how i got to this position :)
22:38 <@Rotonen> not complaining, though
22:39 <@Rotonen> anyway, i'm going to set up an another computer here now so i'm going to be afk a while
22:42 < Bertram> see ya
22:42 -!- Bertram [n=yohann@80.125.127.91] has left #tmwart ["Bye !"]