The IRC log of the meeting:

21:01 <@ElvenProgrammer> ok let's start the meeting i think
21:01 -!- mode/#manaworld-dev [+v Bertram] by ElvenProgrammer
21:01 -!- mode/#manaworld-dev [+v m[a]tt] by ElvenProgrammer
21:02 -!- Nayr [n=Nayr@24-50-57-75.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #manaworld-dev
21:06 <@MrLindeijer> Ok there I am.
21:06 <@MrLindeijer> What are the discussion points?
21:06 <@ElvenProgrammer> i guess Doener won't join us
21:06 <+Doener> i'm here :p
21:06 <@ElvenProgrammer> hehe
21:07 <@ElvenProgrammer> so i'd like to define the main points we want to reach with the client and then concentrate with server development
21:07 <@MrLindeijer> On we finish client network layer rewrite and focus on server.
21:08 <@ElvenProgrammer> in my opninion those are:
21:08 <@ElvenProgrammer> 1) graphic engine improvements (including the new playerset and visible equipments)
21:08 <@ElvenProgrammer> 2) complete the transition to sdl_net
21:09 -!- mode/#manaworld-dev [+v Nayr] by ElvenProgrammer
21:09 <+m[a]tt> wtf. i have voice.
21:09 <+Nayr> hehe
21:09 <+Nayr> cool
21:09 <+m[a]tt> before you devoice me :P :
21:09 <+m[a]tt> i think the new server should have some configurable rules.
21:09 <+Nayr> umm
21:09 <+Nayr> can I make an item reference?
21:09 -!- pinkie3 [n=Miranda@ppp-67-151.27-151.libero.it] has joined #manaworld-dev
21:09 <+Nayr> and later, possibly, enemy reference
21:09 <@ElvenProgrammer> Nayr: what?
21:09 <+m[a]tt> so you can set up a server where players can only pick up there own items
21:09 <@MrLindeijer> I think we should also try to do that npc and item image split before the next version.
21:09 <+m[a]tt> or you can make a server with reall life rules
21:09 <@ElvenProgrammer> MrLindeijer: oh yeah of course
21:10 <@ElvenProgrammer> m[a]tt: if you're going to say relevant things or i'll devoice you
21:10 <+m[a]tt> ElvenProgrammer: i thought this server this was relevant :(
21:10 <@MrLindeijer> Do we want minimaps for inside the casino? I guess that may be a bit weird and ou risk seeing another room on the map. :)
21:11 <+Nayr> that'sd be kinda too wierd, a minimap for each room?
21:11 <@MrLindeijer> No other maps missing minimap? Cause then we can mark that one as done in the Roadmap.
21:11 <@MrLindeijer> I think rooms don't need maps.
21:11 <@MrLindeijer> They're completely onscreen mostly.
21:11 <@ElvenProgrammer> MrLindeijer: let's stick with no indoor maps for the momen
21:11 <+Doener> agreed
21:11 <@MrLindeijer> Ok.
21:12 <+m[a]tt> MrLindeijer: then rooms dont need a this map window
21:12 <@MrLindeijer> Ok the tile engine improvement would be rather nice to do too for the next release.
21:12 <@ElvenProgrammer> so i guess we should assign those 3 tasks with high priority to me, you and doener
21:12 <@MrLindeijer> m[a]tt: True.
21:13 <@MrLindeijer> Ok I think I got food here for at least three people, but I guess I'll need to eat it on my own.
21:14 <@ElvenProgrammer> Doener: is there any task you'd like to do?
21:14 <+Doener> i'd like to do sdl_net stuff or the image splitting. preferably sdl_net, cause the latter will probably cause me to act wild on opengl optimizations *g*
21:14 <@ElvenProgrammer> lol sincerely i think the splitting most suits you but as you wish...
21:15 <@ElvenProgrammer> so MrLindeijer do you want the tile engine or the sdl_net?
21:16  * ElvenProgrammer thinks MrLindeijer is eating
21:17 <+m[a]tt> MrLindeijer: are you still in germany?
21:17 -!- mode/#manaworld-dev [-v m[a]tt] by ElvenProgrammer
21:18 -!- m[a]tt [n=m[a]tt@p5497564E.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #manaworld-dev []
21:19 <@MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: I will help you with MessageOut I guess and I would like to to the tile engine improvement.
21:19 <@MrLindeijer> I am indeed eating.
21:20 <@MrLindeijer> It's boullion rice with pineapple chicken a la Bjørn.
21:20 <+Nayr> is there anything I can do?
21:20 <@ElvenProgrammer> i hope i can manage the messageout thing on my own but i fear i will need help, i suggest you start with tile engine though and while you're at it you could maybe start thinking about
                         animated tiles?
21:21 <@MrLindeijer> Ah sure I can give that some thought.
21:21 <+Doener> uhm... what task did i get now?
21:21 <@MrLindeijer> Btw I'd be working on this next week, cause this weekend I've got very little time. Sunday I'll be celebrating birthday of my grandmother and also my dads.
21:21 <@MrLindeijer> dad's.
21:21 <+Bertram> wb
21:21 <@ElvenProgrammer> MrLindeijer: k
21:21 <+Bertram> sorry to be late
21:22 <@MrLindeijer> Bertram: No problem, read up and talk. :)
21:22 <@ElvenProgrammer> Doener: you can still choose but i'd like you to work on the splitting part, i really think you will enjoy it
21:22 <+Doener> i'll only have time tomorrow and then tuesday again... moving on monday
21:22 <+Doener> (well, sunday evening actually)
21:22 <@ElvenProgrammer> moving? where?
21:23 <+Doener> together with my girlfriend, closer to my university
21:23 <@MrLindeijer> Nice, congrats.
21:24 <+Doener> thanks
21:24 <@MrLindeijer> Where is the University?
21:24 <@ElvenProgrammer> but you will have time for tmw then, or only sex?
21:25 <+Bertram> the first days, tmw will have fewer time, that's normal
21:26 <+Bertram> I'll finish that gui status work, first, I think
21:26 <+Doener> MrLindeijer: Bielefeld ;)
21:27 <+Bertram> What's the next task I could be put in ?
21:27 <+Doener> ElvenProgrammer: University didn't start yet, but my girlfriend's studies do start on monday, so I'll at least have time in the morning and afternoon ;)
21:28 <@MrLindeijer> Bertram: I guess server work?
21:28 <+Doener> luckily we get out internet connection on monday :D (took just 2 weeks, if you got bad luck, it can takes months here...)
21:28 <@MrLindeijer> That's where the rest is heading after these changes too I think.
21:28 <+Bertram> MrLindeijer: Ok. As I already did some. I'll continue testing the new server
21:29 <+Doener> ElvenProgrammer: ok, just to check that we're talking about the same thing. Splitting is: Putting each item/weapon/etc. in its own file, right?
21:29 <@ElvenProgrammer> i was also thinking that maybe we could replace npcs textares with browser boxes so we can use colored text in them
21:29 <+Bertram> for NPC, I especially agree
21:29 <@MrLindeijer> Yes, and I'd like the path structure/naming I suggested on the dev list to be used.
21:29 <@MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: I'm not sure about doing that right now...
21:30 <@MrLindeijer> I'm still not really fond of the browser box. :/
21:30 <@ElvenProgrammer> Doener: i hope you did receive the mails form the mailing list
21:30 <+Nayr> browser boxes is a bit extreme
21:30 <+Nayr> how about rich text?
21:30 <@ElvenProgrammer> MrLindeijer: i see
21:30 <+Nayr> it shouldn't be that hard to create
21:30 <+Bertram> browser boxes for npc ? What will that look like exactly ?
21:30 <+Doener> ElvenProgrammer: yes i do, but i don't see the path structure/naming thing... hmm, older mail?
21:31 <+Bertram> oh I see.
21:31 <@MrLindeijer> Doener: It's in my reply to ElvenProgrammer's post.
21:31 <+Bertram> is it good to already separate every item ?
21:31 <@MrLindeijer> I think so.
21:32 <+Doener> Bertram: it _might_ affect opengl performance, but if that really happens, we could still add some texture management that joins the loaded stuff into single bigger textures
21:32 <@ElvenProgrammer> then i was thinking that we have a lot of docs in the docs folder and we can maybe delete/move to wiki most of them
21:32 <+Doener> from the administrative point of view, i think it's a plus to separate them
21:32 <+Bertram> Maybe later, we'll put the mini-item picture with the visible equip one ?
21:32 <+Nayr> why isn't OpenGL default?
21:33 <+Bertram> ElvenProgrammer: I'll remove the debian.txt
21:33 <+Doener> Nayr: because folks with slow/no 3d hardware will kill you if a simple 2d game crawls like sh*t
21:33 <@MrLindeijer> Nayr: I guess it should at least be the default on Windows and Mac, but I'm not sure about Linux, at least here OpenGL is slower than SDL at the moment.
21:34 <@ElvenProgrammer> Bertram: i was thinking more at other documants, the install ones could stay, or be integrated in INSTALL maybe?
21:34 <@MrLindeijer> INSTALL is a very standard document.
21:34 <+Bertram> the second solution is more standard
21:34 <+Bertram> MrLindeijer: we agree ^^
21:34 <@MrLindeijer> No I mean the contents are what GNU autotools put in there...
21:35 <@MrLindeijer> What would you want to merge with it?
21:35 <@MrLindeijer> Oh wait that's a custom one.
21:35 <@MrLindeijer> I wonder what I mixed it up with, or did we replace the standard a long time ago?
21:35 <@MrLindeijer> I guess.
21:35 <@ElvenProgrammer> i don't know
21:37 <+Bertram> I had an idea
21:37 <@MrLindeijer> I think we should move win32.txt to the docs folder, and get rid of that INSTALL folder. As well as the SOURCE folder, moving tmw.doxcfg to Doxyfile.
21:37 <+Bertram> Shouldn't the minimap window be shown only if there's a minimap ?
21:39 <@MrLindeijer> Bertram: I think that'd be better, yes.
21:39 <+Bertram> Ok. This one is for me
21:39 <+Doener> MrLindeijer: the dev list or the cvsspam list? if the former, are you sure that you replied to the list and not only elven?
21:39 <@MrLindeijer> Bertram: Try to take longer than 5 mins. ;)
21:40 <@MrLindeijer> Doener: The dev list.
21:40 <@MrLindeijer> Damn maybe I only replied to Elven...
21:40 <+Bertram> MrLindeijer: you mean less than ? ^^
21:40 <@MrLindeijer> I did :(
21:40 <@MrLindeijer> Bertram: I meant it would be a challenge to take longer.
21:41 <+Nayr> g2g
21:41 <@ElvenProgrammer> MrLindeijer: is there a way to set repy to?
21:41 <+Bertram> ElvenProgrammer: Normally , yes
21:41 <+Bertram> but it depends on your mail client
21:41 <@ElvenProgrammer> *reply
21:41 <+Nayr> when i get back, /home/groups/t/th/themanaworld/htdocs/files/tmw-0.0.16-mac.dmg.tbz better be on the sf file page!
21:41 <+Nayr> or else...
21:41 -!- Nayr [n=Nayr@24-50-57-75.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
21:42 <@ElvenProgrammer> i mean can't the mailing list set itself as default reply?
21:42 <+Bertram> ElvenProgrammer: oh yes, did you update the link to the mac port ?
21:42 <@MrLindeijer> Doener: I've sent it to the list now.
21:42 <+Bertram> ElvenProgrammer: normally, yes
21:43 <@MrLindeijer> Ok I'll go release the mac release.
21:43 <+Bertram> ElvenProgrammer: If your client recognized it is a mailing list. It does it automatically
21:43 <@MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: I think it can, I'll see if that option is set.
21:43 <+Bertram> Also. Is there a way to purge all these files outhere
21:43 <+Bertram> ?
21:43 <@MrLindeijer> Purge all what files?
21:44 <+Bertram> there's unused folder on sf
21:44 <+Bertram> and some other files
21:44 <+Bertram> folders*
21:44 <@MrLindeijer> Well we cleaned up some earlier this week.
21:46 <+Bertram> in the htdocs/files folder, there are the new_8-1.tmx.gz, tmw-0.0.14.1-tiger.zip, tmw_007_macosx.dmg.tgz, ...
21:46 -!- pinkie3 [n=Miranda@ppp-67-151.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Client Quit]
21:47 <+Bertram> and also the debian folder.
21:47 <@ElvenProgrammer> heh nayr still didn't upload the mac package?
21:47 <+Bertram> he did
21:48 <@MrLindeijer> Mac is PPC, right?
21:48 <@MrLindeijer> I released it now.
21:48 <@MrLindeijer> Now we need to link it on our downloads page.
21:48 <@ElvenProgrammer> MrLindeijer: will you do it?
21:48 <@MrLindeijer> Ok I'll update it.
21:49 <@ElvenProgrammer> ok then i'll stop
21:49 <+Bertram> First, let's summarize maybe ?
21:50 <@ElvenProgrammer> what?
21:50 <+Bertram> Maybe putting who-do-what on the roadmap would be a good thing ?
21:50 <+Bertram> who-do-what-for-next-release*
21:51 <@MrLindeijer> Mac package back up: http://themanaworld.org/downloads.php
21:52 <@MrLindeijer> We can put the items on the roadmap tagged with our name, at least that's the idea.
21:52 <+Bertram> yeah ^^
21:52 <@MrLindeijer> I'll put my name at tile engine improvement and this little Image::load fix.
21:54 <@MrLindeijer> Ok done.
21:54 <+Bertram> I'll add gui improvements (or at least changes)
21:55 <@MrLindeijer> I've moved dynamic sprite recoloring to the 0.0.18 release.
21:55 <@ElvenProgrammer> image load fix?
21:55 <@MrLindeijer> Well see Roadmap, it's just a small error reporting thign.
21:55 <@MrLindeijer> thing*
21:56 <+CIA-8> b_lindeijer * tmw/ (ChangeLog src/net/messagein.cpp src/resources/image.cpp): Tiny error reporting improvement.
21:56 <@MrLindeijer> That one.
21:56 <@ElvenProgrammer> ah nice download page, finally all complete
21:57 <@MrLindeijer> I'll mark it as done on the roadmap. ;)
21:57 <@MrLindeijer> When Bertram is done.
21:57 <@MrLindeijer> Ok Bertram could do it while he's at it.
21:57 <+Bertram> ok
21:58 <+Doener> hm, i've asked a few times now... "Fix engine handling of map border case", i made the scrolling stop at the map border around 0.0.15... does this fix this?
21:58 <@ElvenProgrammer> i was wondering if could be worth to add a check to not draw beings outside screen
21:58 <+Bertram> Doener: We spoke about it ?
21:58 <@MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: Should not be worth it.
21:59 <@MrLindeijer> Btw scrolling doesn't work on the update window for me now.
21:59 <@ElvenProgrammer> for me neither
21:59 <@MrLindeijer> Not sure since when this is, but seemed like since the last news item was added.
21:59 <+Bertram> scrolling, for long texts ?
21:59 <@MrLindeijer> Maybe.
22:00 <@MrLindeijer> But the text doesn't move at all anymore.
22:00 <+Doener> Bertram: did we? i know that i talked to someone, but i though that was matt...
22:00 <@MrLindeijer> Btw where is our developer server for when animesites.de is down? :)
22:00 <+Bertram> lol
22:01 <+Bertram> Doener: That was me. I sent you a screenshot
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22:01 <+Doener> Bertram: and you were using an old version :p
22:01 <+Doener> one that didn't stop scrolling
22:01 <@ElvenProgrammer> MrLindeijer: need to start mine?
22:01 <+Bertram> no, I'm quite sure it was cvs
22:02 <@MrLindeijer> Doener: I think there was a weird scrolling glitch going on when approaching the border, and limiting the scrolling wouldn't be the fix I'd like to see I think, I'd prefer to just see the
                     glitch fixed.
22:02 <@MrLindeijer> I'm not talking about the drawing problems that occur when nothing is somewhere.
22:02 <@MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: Sure that would be handy.
22:03 <+Doener> MrLindeijer: ok, that's what i wanted to know :)
22:03 <+Bertram> "nothing is somewhere." Nice sentence
22:03 <+Doener> and now i need to know what exactly that scrolling glitch is *g*
22:03 <@ElvenProgrammer> ok i'll start mine, can't guarantee about speed though
22:03 <+Doener> MrLindeijer: I made the scrolling stop, when you approach the nothing somewhere
22:04 <@ElvenProgrammer> please test if you can connect to themanaworld.homeip.net
22:06 <@MrLindeijer> Doener: I understand, and I could imagine that would work around the glitch that was previously visible.
22:06 <+Doener> MrLindeijer: hm, i've never seen such a glitch... even before i commited that patch...
22:07 <@MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: Works, yay.
22:07 <+Doener> only glitch i saw was in the upper-left of the map below town. there was nothing somewhere
22:07 <+Doener> ElvenProgrammer: yep
22:07 <@ElvenProgrammer> yeah i see
22:07 <@MrLindeijer> Doener: Well it happened when approaching the border of the map, consistently for example at the western border of the desert.
22:09 <+Bertram> yes
22:09 <+Bertram> and homeip is working
22:09 <@ElvenProgrammer> Doener: you can't see it because the maps have a nice 30 tiles border that avoid this effect
22:10 <@MrLindeijer> Well the desert map didn't and still doesn't I think.
22:10 <+Bertram> sure ?
22:10 <+Doener> ElvenProgrammer: i guess you're talking about an other glitch than MrLindeijer
22:10 <@ElvenProgrammer> possibly
22:11 <@ElvenProgrammer> i'm doing 4 things at the same time i can be wrong
22:11 <@MrLindeijer> Well I no longer see the glitch, I think we could just assume it fixed.
22:12 <+Bertram> let's assume that for now
22:12 <@MrLindeijer> Anyway I'll be sure to check the drawing code while adapting it for the tile engine improvement.
22:12 <+Bertram> shall I put it fixed on the roadmap
22:12 <+Bertram> ?
22:13 <@MrLindeijer> Yes.
22:14 <+Rotonen> btw, any solutions to the infamous bridge dilemma?
22:15 <+Bertram> MrLindeijer: isn't the server involved with that ?
22:15 <@MrLindeijer> I think we should plan to fix that later, and yes that involves collision layer management and pathfinding, so also server.
22:15 <+Bertram> so we're trapped for now
22:16 <@MrLindeijer> For now the tile engine improvement will mean easier mapping and less artifacts.
22:16 <+Bertram> oh yes
22:17 <+Bertram> But we won't consider the fringed tiles as being, right ?
22:18 <+Bertram> you just get some checks on drawings as you told it in the wiki?
22:19 <+Bertram> Also, I've seen many players would love having the click and let pushed to walk
22:19 <@MrLindeijer> They won't be beings, still tiles...
22:19 <+Bertram> and the click to attack
22:19 <+Bertram> click to move and attack
22:20 <+Bertram> maybe we should consider that in a more higher priority ?
22:20 <@MrLindeijer> I won't for now.
22:20 <@MrLindeijer> But you're free to pick that. :)
22:20 <+Bertram> lol
22:21 <+Bertram> many things to do. and I'd like to put up some efforts on the server. But whenever I get bored, ok :)
22:21 <@MrLindeijer> Note that it was already implemented once, but that it caused too much traffic, then it was removed instead of fixed.
22:22 <+Bertram> traffic, ah it sent to much request for move
22:22  * Doener hides
22:24 <+Doener> does the server receive target coordinates and hopes that it got the same idea about the path that the client has, or does it get "single step" movement messages?
22:24  * Bertram catches Doener hiding behing a Crush's Tree
22:25 <+Bertram> Doener: Good question. All the problem is there, I think.
22:26 <+Bertram> MrLindeijer: pushing an arrow key or a mouse button makes the equal traffic, or did I miss something ?
22:26 <+Doener> i'm tired and off to bed now... have a good one!
22:27 <@ElvenProgrammer> sweet night
22:27 <+Bertram> bye Doener
22:31 <@MrLindeijer> Bertram: You probably missed something, the mouse walk with holding button down was implemented in such a way that a packet was sent each frame (like 100 times a second).
22:31 <@MrLindeijer> Goodnight Doener.
22:31 <+Bertram> MrLindeijer: ouch
22:32 <@MrLindeijer> Bertram: The nice thing about mousewalk is that you can send the destination, which saves traffic compared to keyboard walk which sends a packet each tile.
22:33 <@MrLindeijer> Bertram: Mouse walk with holding your button down should use traffic somewhere in between I think.
22:33 <+Bertram> yes. I thought things had been done that way :/
22:33 <+Bertram> at least send a packet not each fram
22:33 <+Bertram> e
22:34 <+Bertram> with the woodlands, and the dried river, we're on something good :)
22:38 <+Bertram> ElvenProgrammer: How do you'd like having the desert transition to mountain, and then mountains to grass ?
22:39 <@ElvenProgrammer> Bertram: ?
22:40 <+Bertram> I mean you wanted a forest one. So we cannot get it like that :)
22:41 <@ElvenProgrammer> Bertram: i mean there will be no transition for the moment, probably only a mysterious warp
22:41 <+Bertram> ElvenProgrammer: Maybe a cave could link ?
22:41 <+Bertram> The transistion would be less weird ?
22:42 <@ElvenProgrammer> maybe
22:44 <+Bertram> And then, it could resolve the exits done in the desert 7-1. A cave with two entrance maybe leading to one exit in woods. Also, the south exit could lead to something done with the dried river ?
22:53 <@MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: Pajarico asked me whether he could upload the images by nevilytis. I think it would depend on whether their license is GPL, and if not sure could you contact nevilytis about
                     it?
22:54 <@ElvenProgrammer> MrLindeijer: nah don't worry they're gpled
22:54 <@MrLindeijer> Ok, thanks.
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23:02 <+Bertram> hi
23:05 <@MrLindeijer> Ok then I think the meeting is over.
23:05 <+Bertram> yes
23:05 <@ElvenProgrammer> agreed