Discussions leading to this document

June 9th, 2006

A discussion about our UML design took place before this, and then changed to a discussion about the character attributes to use. We'll jump right in at that point:

02:34 < Bertram> anyway, i'd be for : Strength, Vitality, Agility, Intelligence, Spirit, Luck for status ones
02:34 < MrLindeijer> I'm a fan of The Elder Scroll series and Diablo, so I'm familiar with their set of attributes and statusses.
02:35 < Bertram> and : attack, defense, Mattack, Mdefense, speed, and Breath for attributes ones
02:35 < Bertram> It's taken from a free RPG I used to play and it worked very well
02:35 < MrLindeijer> Those are both lists of attributes.
02:35 < MrLindeijer> The status fields were health, mana, stamina.
02:36 < Bertram> Attack = Strength + SwordAttack
02:36 < Bertram> HP, MP come with Attack and the other, right
02:36 < MrLindeijer> Hmm I'd call that a derived attribute.
02:36 < Bertram> Ahh, i see what you meant by status now
02:37 < Bertram> So a being has a status(HP, MP, Breath or Stamina), attributes(Att, Def, MAtt, MDef, Speed), and derived attributes
02:38 < Bertram> So a being has a status(HP, MP, Breath or Stamina), attributes(Strength, Vitality, Agility, Intelligence, Spirit, Luck), and derived attributes(Att, Def, MAtt, MDef, Speed)*
02:39 < Bertram> What do you think for a proposition ?
02:39 < MrLindeijer> What's Spirit?
02:40 < Bertram> Intelligence would be more used for the number of spell you can use and MAtt, Spirit would be your Mdef, maybe.
02:41 < Bertram> or Spirit would be Matt (cause of the Spirit Strength) and Intelligence the Mdef
02:41 < Bertram> At least, I'd like to make a proposal on the terms used in the new server.
02:42 < MrLindeijer> I'm writing down a list with some explanations.
02:42 < MrLindeijer> I'm not fond of Luck.
02:43 < Bertram> Luck is the sand in the bottle. We could use it for a little more of randomization ?
02:44 < MrLindeijer> Well I don't like the idea that someone could simply get more lucky because of an attribute.
02:45 < Bertram> Someone more lucky has got less in Strength. Many games are using luck in fact.
02:45 < Bertram> But I can understand your cold
02:45 < MrLindeijer> What about Wisdom or Dexterity?
02:46 < Bertram> Dexterity would be Agility (Quite the same for me.)
02:46 < Bertram> in a game though :)
02:46 < MrLindeijer> I think of them as:
02:46 < MrLindeijer> Agility      (increases change to hit and walking speed)
02:46 < MrLindeijer> Dexterity    (increases change of evasion and missile accuracy)
02:46 < Bertram> Wisdom could separate the intelligence for Mdef and the number of spell or the level of them you can have
02:47 < Bertram> Interresting distinction...
02:47 < Bertram> I agree about it
02:49 < MrLindeijer> I agree they're basically the same, but the distinction allows for more variability in what you focus on or what your character behaves like.
02:49 < MrLindeijer> I'm not sure though, if we should really modify walking speed.
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02:51 < Bertram> Slightly, we should yes
02:51 < Bertram> at 1, you walk at, for instance 1 square / sec. at 255, you do the double.
02:52 < Bertram> It's very little for a progression
02:52 < Bertram> but makes it
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02:53 < Bertram> ah, better
02:55 < MrLindeijer> Ah yeah, now I remember.
02:55 < MrLindeijer> Instead of Spirit for magic defence, I'm used to Willpower.
02:55 < MrLindeijer> And we haven't mentioned Endurance yet.
02:56 < Bertram> Breath was that in my head
02:56 < MrLindeijer> I thought that was stamina.
02:58 < MrLindeijer> Ah cool, here's a good reference on the Daggerfall attributes: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Character_Creation
02:58 < Bertram> good
02:58 < MrLindeijer> Strength, Intelligence and Agility are in line with our thought already.
02:58 < MrLindeijer> thoughts*
02:58 < MrLindeijer> Apparently they didn't separate out Dexterity.
02:59 < MrLindeijer> Endurance looks like what we called Vitality.
03:00 < Bertram> I'd like to add Agility, though
03:01 < MrLindeijer> I don't like so much their Willpower, Personality, Speed and Luck attributes. In my opinion they're too specific.
03:01 < MrLindeijer> I mean they modify only one aspect.
03:01 < MrLindeijer> Yes I thought we already had Agility.
03:02 < Bertram> Personality is something we should add by Diplomacy handling or somewhat
03:02 < Bertram> between Guilds or something like that
03:03 < MrLindeijer> Two versions later (Oblivion), they had still the same attributes: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Attributes
03:03 < MrLindeijer> We can also call Personality the Charisma.
03:04 < MrLindeijer> Ah you mean to use it more for disposition.
03:04 < Bertram> Disposition ?
03:05 < MrLindeijer> Like whether you are enemy or friends with somebody.
03:07 < Bertram> yes, exactly. And would be different for each guilds
03:07 < Bertram> something like 0-9 bad, 10 neutral, 11-20 good, or something like that
03:08 < MrLindeijer> Maybe the meaning I'm looking for is "an attitude of mind especially one that favors one alternative over others"
03:08 < MrLindeijer> I mean it as something relative from you to another person.
03:09 < Bertram> Affinity
03:09 < MrLindeijer> But that's not really what the word disposition means.
03:09 < Bertram> Sympathy ;)
03:09 < MrLindeijer> Something like that.
03:09 < Bertram> I like Affinity
03:09 < Bertram> Sounds
03:13 < Bertram> So, to summarize. I agree with Agility/Dexterity. I'd like to see an Affinity system. We can use Intelligence for Spell Numbers and Levels and Wisdom for Magic Attack
03:13 < Bertram> We could also use Willpower or Spirit for Magic Defence
03:13 < Bertram> What do you agree with ?
03:16 < MrLindeijer> I also see Diablo basically called Intelligence Energy.
03:16 < MrLindeijer> I'm not sure yet, I think we should make a list of all the stuff we have encountered so far and their meanings.
03:16 < MrLindeijer> Then tomorrow we should pick a subset which we think fits well together, and refine their meaning as a group.
03:17 < MrLindeijer> I'm saying tomorrow, because now I should really be going to bed.
03:17 < Bertram> ok. I'll keep that in mind. Hope to see you soon
03:17 < MrLindeijer> I think I'll get on IRC from like 11:00.
03:19 < MrLindeijer> I liked that we've been talking about this and I think we're making good progress, both with these attributes as with the world design.
03:19 < MrLindeijer> I hope with the input from Doener and Elven, we'll be able to agree on these things.
03:20 < Bertram> me too, some fog on this will leave soon, i geuss
03:20 < Bertram> guess*
03:20 < MrLindeijer> And whoever else cares to share his thoughts.
03:20 < Bertram> lol
03:20 < Bertram> Never tell him ;)
03:20 < MrLindeijer> At least I think this is better than relying on some dude that passes by to think out the combat and magic system for us.
03:21 < MrLindeijer> Maybe you remember who I mean. :P
03:21 < Bertram> yep. I'm thinking on that system since some months now, and i guess you too
03:21 < Bertram> lol
03:22 < Bertram> Maci ? or Matt ?
03:22 < MrLindeijer> I think Crush also had some idea though, right?
03:22 < MrLindeijer> I was thinking of Kyokai.
03:24 -!- kNiVeZy [n=knives@0-1pool223-166.nas118.chicago3.il.us.da.qwest.net] has joined #themanaworld
03:24 < MrLindeijer> But also pages like this: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Combat_system
03:26 < MrLindeijer> We should also evaluatie the three existing proposed stat systems on the wiki.
03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Stat_system
03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Skill_system
03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Stat_system_2
03:26 < MrLindeijer> :)
03:28 < MrLindeijer> To me it seems we're heading for an attribute/skill combo similar to The Elder Scrolls.
03:28 < MrLindeijer> Though earlier it has also been going towards a skill-only solution I think.
03:28 < Bertram> Well, I evaluated them all. And my heart of old school RPG gamer dislike them as they're quickly unplayable
03:28 < MrLindeijer> Anyway, more tomorrow.
03:29 < MrLindeijer> Ok. :)
03:29 < MrLindeijer> Good night!
03:29 < Bertram> good night !
03:29 < Bertram> hey
03:29 < Bertram> Did you noted things down or shall I ?
03:29 < MrLindeijer> Hmm I didn't note everything down.
03:30 < Bertram> But you've got the status/attribute/derivative attributes and their names ?
03:31 < MrLindeijer> I'll try to make that complete and put it on the wiki somewhere.
03:31 < Bertram> Ah, and tomorrow, after deciding all that, or while, we should talk back about the design.
03:33 < Bertram> good night anyway
03:34 < Bertram> and thanks for that lengthy talk
03:34 < MrLindeijer> Ok let's see.
03:36 < MrLindeijer> Bertram: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Attributes
03:36 < MrLindeijer> Could you maybe check it quickly to see if you miss something?
03:37 < Bertram> it's ok for me
03:38 < Bertram> You didn't talk aboit the status and derivative ones ?
03:38 < MrLindeijer> Not yet.
03:39 < Bertram> It's a whole thing for me
03:39 < Bertram> But ok for that part anyway
03:41 < MrLindeijer> Ok I've also added Luck and Speed now.
03:41 < MrLindeijer> Even though I think we should leave them out.
03:42 < Bertram> I think they're fine
03:43 < Bertram> Especially with a working animation system
03:43 < Bertram> Speed will become nice
03:43 < MrLindeijer> Well I think we shouldn't make the list so long, hence the thing about choosing a subset of these attributes.
03:44 < MrLindeijer> I'm not saying speed can't increase, just that I don't really like it to be done via a Speed attribute. :)
03:44 < Bertram> So it should be aderivative
03:44 < MrLindeijer> Anyway, sleepy time. :)
03:44 < Bertram> ok. Bye and see ya
03:44 < MrLindeijer> Bye.

The next morning ElvenProgrammer took a look at it:

10:45 < ElvenProgrammer> ning
10:45 < tehfox> have a nice morning. :-)
10:58 < MrLindeijer> Hello.
10:58 < the-me> hi
11:00 < MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: I've had a discussion about attributes with Bertram last night. To help choosing which ones we're going to use, we've summarized the ones in use in other games. I've put this on the wiki here: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Attributes
11:01 < MrLindeijer> I think we should aim for about 6 attributes.
11:01 < ElvenProgrammer> can't agility and speed be merged
11:02 < MrLindeijer> They are different things in The Elder Scrolls.
11:02 < MrLindeijer> Of course some things can be merged.
11:02 < MrLindeijer> But if you'd merge Agility with something, it'd probably be Dexterity.
11:02 < ElvenProgrammer> by "change" you mean chance?
11:02 < MrLindeijer> Hmm yeah.
11:03 < MrLindeijer> Corrected.
11:04 < ElvenProgrammer> well at least i'd consider strength, agility/dexterity, vitality and energy/magic
11:04 < MrLindeijer> The Diablo ones.
11:07 < ElvenProgrammer> ah yeah
11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> i'd like also charisma or luck
11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> and one between wisdom and spirit
11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> 6 should be enough
11:09 < MrLindeijer> I don't like Luck and Speed. :P
11:10 < ElvenProgrammer> at least we agree on speed
11:10 < MrLindeijer> I would like Agility and Dexterity to be separated. In that case, Agility takes part of the role of Speed actually.
11:10 < ElvenProgrammer> should we maybe start with our proposal and go from there?
11:11 < ElvenProgrammer> for me it's: strength, agility, dexterity, vitality, energy, spirit and charisma
11:12 < MrLindeijer> Our proposal?
11:12 < MrLindeijer> Ah I prefer intelligence and willpower for energy and spirit.
11:12 < MrLindeijer> Other than that, the set of attributes is fine with me.
11:13 < ElvenProgrammer> i'm ok with intelligence and willpower, so let's start with those ones ok? can you write them on wiki?
11:13 < MrLindeijer> I'll make them bold maybe?
11:14 < ElvenProgrammer> as you prefer
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11:16 < MrLindeijer> Ok page updated.
11:16 < MrLindeijer> I like it.
11:17 < ElvenProgrammer> me too, having magic attack and defense somewhat really makes me happy
11:18 < MrLindeijer> Yeah and the same for normal fighting looks nice.
11:19 < ElvenProgrammer> ok ban time
11:19 < MrLindeijer> Do you agree on the derived attributes?
11:19 < MrLindeijer> I guess those are pretty obvious.
11:19 < MrLindeijer> Just have seen things like attack, defence, magic attack and magic defence, and I think that's now already covered by the basic attributes.
11:20 < MrLindeijer> Plus the skills and equipment.
11:20 < ElvenProgrammer> of course i agree