Archive talk:Attributes

Making every attribute important

Bjorn Lindeijer suggested to make the system in a way that every character needs a bit of every attribute to be successful. As an example where this works he mentioned the Diablo series. But Diablo only uses four different attributes while we plan to use seven.

Here are some thoughts about what every single attribute could do for 4 different stereotypical characters: Melee fighters, ranged fighters, magic users and crafters.

Melee Fighters

Melee fighters are warriors with heavy armor who attack the enemies in close combat. They take most of the damage to protect less tough characters.

Strength

Attack Power and carrying their usually heavy equipment. should be required for every melee fighter

Agility

Dodging attacks. Might be possible to substitute with enough vitality.

Dexterity

Hitting with attacks. should be required for every melee fighter

Vitality

Surviving attacks. Might be possible to substitute with enough agility.

Intelligence

What could a warrior need intelligence for? Maybe we could make some weapons require intelligence, where primitive weapons like maces and clubs require few intelligence while weapons that are more complicate to use like epees or whips require more intelligence. Would make intelligence optional for fighters

Willpower

We could use willpower not only for resisting magic like the attribute system reads but also for recovering faster after hits. A character with a low willpower might be knocked down by a strong hit and stay on the ground for a while, while a high willpower character is stunned less frequently and gets on its feet much faster. Might be a posibility to make willpower useful for melee fighters.

Charisma

Very few MMORPGs use a charisma score as the character interaction is mostly between players and players and not between players and NPCs. Maybe we could use the charisma attribute to limit the access to locations or quests. Characters might not be able to get into cities or get quests because they don't look trustworthy enough. When we use this extensively we could force every character to skill some charisma.

Conclusion

In this system melee fighters can choose between low intelligence and using crude weapons (barbarian style) or high intelligence and using fine weapons (duellist style). I see no problem making both extremes and the middle road equally playable. But where I see a problem is finding a fair balance between agility and vitality that ensures that a mix of both is better than relying only on one.

Ranged fighters

Ranged fighters usually stay behind their party avoiding direct contact with the enemy while using long range physical weapons for attacking.

Strength

Although most RPG systems don't use strength for determining the efficiency for ranged weapons I would suggest that we do so. When you are stronger you can throw things harder and put more force onto a bow string. When we don't the only thing that archers would need strength for would be for carrying amunition. Required when used for calculating attack power, otherwise hardly useful

Agility

Ranged fighters will usually avoid getting hit by staying out of range. Especially when playing with a party. So we might need to find another reason why ranged fighters need agility.

Dexterity

Hitting accuracy should be very important for ranged fighters. We could add a range penalty for hitting targets so that dexterity is especially important for ranged fighters.

Vitality

Ranged fighters will usually avoid getting hit by staying out of range. Especially when playing with a party. So we might need to find another reason why ranged fighters need vitality.

Intelligence

We could use the same argument as for melee fighters. Ranged weapons usually require more thinking than melee weapons because operating a ranged weapon is usually more complicated than just whacking the enemy with it. So ranged weapons might require even more intelligence than melee weapons. An example for rather primitive ranged weapons would be slingshots. Ranged weapons that require more intelligence could be crossbows (because the mechanics require some technical understanding) or throwing knives (difficult to use). Doing so would make intelligence very important for ranged fighters

Willpower

I wouldn't know why ranged fighters should skill willpower.

Charisma

Same reason as for melee fighters.

Conclusion

Ranged fighters should need only 4 of the 7 attributes. I can't find a reason why ranged fighters should need any defensive stats (they will usually avoid close combat and attack from a distance).

Magic Users

Magic users are usually walking artillery guns who stay behind and attack the enemies with spells while others hold them off.

Charisma, Willpower, Intelligence

User:Crush/Magic_System covers the attributes charisma (number of spells available at the same time), willpower (hit propability of status effect spells) and intelligence (efficiency of attack spells).

Strength

I wouldn't know what magic users could need strength for besides carrying their equipment and maybe magic tools and ingredients.

Agility

Mages will usually avoid getting hit by staying out of range. Especially when playing with a party. So we might need to find another reason why mages need agility.

Dexterity

As mages won't attack physically they don't need hit propability. So we might need to find another reason why mages need dexterity.

Vitality

Mages will usually avoid getting hit by staying out of range. Especially when playing with a party. So we might need to find another reason why mages need vitality.

Conclusion

Magic users only need those attributes that increase their magic abilities so that they inflict more damage. Maybe we could include one or two more attributes into the magic system (agility or dexterity could also affect cast time, for example) but I see no way to make all 7 attributes necessary for magic users.

Crafters

Crafters are characters that have no other purpose but crafting items while the necessary resources are bought from other players or collected by other characters of the same player.

Strength

Might influence the success rate or material options for crafting disciplines that require a lot of physical power like forging. Harder materials might require a minimum strength because otherwise the character is too weak to form them and thus the character can't work with them. Thus strength would be required for certain crafting disciplines.

Agility

Crafters don't fight and I wouldn't know a crafting discipline where agility is important. Maybe agility could used to affect the time the character needs for crafting something. But the importance of this is doubtful.

Dexterity

Might influence the success rate for almost every crafting discipline. Especially those that require fine motor skills like jewlery. Thus it would be required for certain crafting disciplines.

Vitality

Crafters don't fight and I wouldn't know a crafting discipline where vitality is important. The only reason to skill vitality I could think of would be to survive the negative results of critical failures in disciplines like alchemy. But even in this case vitality seems quite useless for a crafter in my opinion.

Intelligence

Might influence the success rates for crafting disciplines that require a lot of technical or scientific knowledge like mechanics or alchemy. Thus intelligence would be required for certain crafting disciplines.

Willpower

I wouldn't know a crafting discipline where willpower is important. I got no idea why crafters would need willpower.

Charisma

When we keep the logic from the magic system where spiritual forces are attracted by charismatic people the charisma could increase the success rate when doing magical enchantments. Thus charisma would be required for certain crafting disciplines.

Conclusion

I would suggest that the success rate of every crafting discipline depends on a different percentual combination of stats so you can use the attribute distribution to specialize your crafter on a certain area of crafting. Forging could be for example 75% strength, 25% dexterity; alchemy 60% intelligence, 40% dexterity or enchanting 50% charisma, 30% intelligence, 20% dexterity.

But this still leaves willpower and vitality as attributes that are quite useless for crafters as I couldn't think of any kind of handcraft where this is important.

General conclusion

Although I tried hardly I don't see a way to make all 7 attributes equally useful for every kind of character. Almost every character direction has at least one attribute that is almost or completely useless for it. Most have even multiple useless attributes.

Comments from other users

Alright, I glanced it over and I agree that making a "class" that allows for maxing of a single stat is silly. Naturally we want to avoid omni-characters, but at the same time a little bit of each attribute makes sense: a brute-force fighter is useless if he can't hit an enemy, or gets hit (low vitality). However, I would suggest putting Strength as a weapon requirement for archers, rather than using it for hit damage. You cannot pull back a powerful bow without strength, however once you have let go of the string, all the strength in the world won't help you. Strength is only needed to prepare the shot, the actual shot itself requires dexterity (accuracy). The more accurate an archer is, the more likely he is to hit a vital point, thus doing more damage. But without strength, he will be stuck to weak bows, due to his inability to pull back the bowstring.

Likewise, I suggest strength as a requirement for craftsmen, with a low-percentage of change in the actual percentage. No matter how strong you are, if you lack dexterity you will mess up the item more than anything. As said, strength will only become applicable to skills requiring strength, however the strength itself won't affect how good the item is. Also, I would recommend a strength-cap, for instance, if you are working on fine-jewelry and you are strong, but lacking in dexterity, you will mess up the item more often. I suggest for the more delicate arts we apply an formula that makes sense. So if you want to forge swords and heavy weaponry, you will need more strength. If you want to forge arrows, jewelry, or other such delicate things, you will need less strength and more dexterity. Though this has already been covered, we might need more discussion on this matter.

I would suggest agility affect how fast the person fights/casts spells. It shouldn't have a major effect, but it should have a speed increase overall I'd say: less time for crafting, less delay on spells, less delay on hitting, etc. Also, if we keep the evasion-to-hp ratio balanced, we will create a need for both vitality and agility. For instance: if agility only adds a small chance of evading an attack, as opposed to increasing your HP by a moderate amount, we create a need for both. Agility for speed and evasion, and HP so as that you don't die in one hit. Naturally archers and mages will use more agility and less HP, whereas a fighter would use less agility and more HP, generally speaking.

---- Pauan 01:11, 5 May 2007 (CEST)

Discussions leading to this document

June 9th, 2006

A discussion about our UML design took place before this, and then changed to a discussion about the character attributes to use. We'll jump right in at that point:

02:34 < Bertram> anyway, i'd be for : Strength, Vitality, Agility, Intelligence, Spirit, Luck for status ones
02:34 < MrLindeijer> I'm a fan of The Elder Scroll series and Diablo, so I'm familiar with their set of attributes and statusses.
02:35 < Bertram> and : attack, defense, Mattack, Mdefense, speed, and Breath for attributes ones
02:35 < Bertram> It's taken from a free RPG I used to play and it worked very well
02:35 < MrLindeijer> Those are both lists of attributes.
02:35 < MrLindeijer> The status fields were health, mana, stamina.
02:36 < Bertram> Attack = Strength + SwordAttack
02:36 < Bertram> HP, MP come with Attack and the other, right
02:36 < MrLindeijer> Hmm I'd call that a derived attribute.
02:36 < Bertram> Ahh, i see what you meant by status now
02:37 < Bertram> So a being has a status(HP, MP, Breath or Stamina), attributes(Att, Def, MAtt, MDef, Speed), and derived attributes
02:38 < Bertram> So a being has a status(HP, MP, Breath or Stamina), attributes(Strength, Vitality, Agility, Intelligence, Spirit, Luck), and derived attributes(Att, Def, MAtt, MDef, Speed)*
02:39 < Bertram> What do you think for a proposition ?
02:39 < MrLindeijer> What's Spirit?
02:40 < Bertram> Intelligence would be more used for the number of spell you can use and MAtt, Spirit would be your Mdef, maybe.
02:41 < Bertram> or Spirit would be Matt (cause of the Spirit Strength) and Intelligence the Mdef
02:41 < Bertram> At least, I'd like to make a proposal on the terms used in the new server.
02:42 < MrLindeijer> I'm writing down a list with some explanations.
02:42 < MrLindeijer> I'm not fond of Luck.
02:43 < Bertram> Luck is the sand in the bottle. We could use it for a little more of randomization ?
02:44 < MrLindeijer> Well I don't like the idea that someone could simply get more lucky because of an attribute.
02:45 < Bertram> Someone more lucky has got less in Strength. Many games are using luck in fact.
02:45 < Bertram> But I can understand your cold
02:45 < MrLindeijer> What about Wisdom or Dexterity?
02:46 < Bertram> Dexterity would be Agility (Quite the same for me.)
02:46 < Bertram> in a game though :)
02:46 < MrLindeijer> I think of them as:
02:46 < MrLindeijer> Agility      (increases change to hit and walking speed)
02:46 < MrLindeijer> Dexterity    (increases change of evasion and missile accuracy)
02:46 < Bertram> Wisdom could separate the intelligence for Mdef and the number of spell or the level of them you can have
02:47 < Bertram> Interresting distinction...
02:47 < Bertram> I agree about it
02:49 < MrLindeijer> I agree they're basically the same, but the distinction allows for more variability in what you focus on or what your character behaves like.
02:49 < MrLindeijer> I'm not sure though, if we should really modify walking speed.
02:50 -!- Bertram25 [n=yohann@84.7.69.228] has joined #themanaworld
02:51 < Bertram> Slightly, we should yes
02:51 < Bertram> at 1, you walk at, for instance 1 square / sec. at 255, you do the double.
02:52 < Bertram> It's very little for a progression
02:52 < Bertram> but makes it
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02:52 -!- Bertram25 is now known as Bertram
02:53 < Bertram> ah, better
02:55 < MrLindeijer> Ah yeah, now I remember.
02:55 < MrLindeijer> Instead of Spirit for magic defence, I'm used to Willpower.
02:55 < MrLindeijer> And we haven't mentioned Endurance yet.
02:56 < Bertram> Breath was that in my head
02:56 < MrLindeijer> I thought that was stamina.
02:58 < MrLindeijer> Ah cool, here's a good reference on the Daggerfall attributes: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Character_Creation
02:58 < Bertram> good
02:58 < MrLindeijer> Strength, Intelligence and Agility are in line with our thought already.
02:58 < MrLindeijer> thoughts*
02:58 < MrLindeijer> Apparently they didn't separate out Dexterity.
02:59 < MrLindeijer> Endurance looks like what we called Vitality.
03:00 < Bertram> I'd like to add Agility, though
03:01 < MrLindeijer> I don't like so much their Willpower, Personality, Speed and Luck attributes. In my opinion they're too specific.
03:01 < MrLindeijer> I mean they modify only one aspect.
03:01 < MrLindeijer> Yes I thought we already had Agility.
03:02 < Bertram> Personality is something we should add by Diplomacy handling or somewhat
03:02 < Bertram> between Guilds or something like that
03:03 < MrLindeijer> Two versions later (Oblivion), they had still the same attributes: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Attributes
03:03 < MrLindeijer> We can also call Personality the Charisma.
03:04 < MrLindeijer> Ah you mean to use it more for disposition.
03:04 < Bertram> Disposition ?
03:05 < MrLindeijer> Like whether you are enemy or friends with somebody.
03:07 < Bertram> yes, exactly. And would be different for each guilds
03:07 < Bertram> something like 0-9 bad, 10 neutral, 11-20 good, or something like that
03:08 < MrLindeijer> Maybe the meaning I'm looking for is "an attitude of mind especially one that favors one alternative over others"
03:08 < MrLindeijer> I mean it as something relative from you to another person.
03:09 < Bertram> Affinity
03:09 < MrLindeijer> But that's not really what the word disposition means.
03:09 < Bertram> Sympathy ;)
03:09 < MrLindeijer> Something like that.
03:09 < Bertram> I like Affinity
03:09 < Bertram> Sounds
03:13 < Bertram> So, to summarize. I agree with Agility/Dexterity. I'd like to see an Affinity system. We can use Intelligence for Spell Numbers and Levels and Wisdom for Magic Attack
03:13 < Bertram> We could also use Willpower or Spirit for Magic Defence
03:13 < Bertram> What do you agree with ?
03:16 < MrLindeijer> I also see Diablo basically called Intelligence Energy.
03:16 < MrLindeijer> I'm not sure yet, I think we should make a list of all the stuff we have encountered so far and their meanings.
03:16 < MrLindeijer> Then tomorrow we should pick a subset which we think fits well together, and refine their meaning as a group.
03:17 < MrLindeijer> I'm saying tomorrow, because now I should really be going to bed.
03:17 < Bertram> ok. I'll keep that in mind. Hope to see you soon
03:17 < MrLindeijer> I think I'll get on IRC from like 11:00.
03:19 < MrLindeijer> I liked that we've been talking about this and I think we're making good progress, both with these attributes as with the world design.
03:19 < MrLindeijer> I hope with the input from Doener and Elven, we'll be able to agree on these things.
03:20 < Bertram> me too, some fog on this will leave soon, i geuss
03:20 < Bertram> guess*
03:20 < MrLindeijer> And whoever else cares to share his thoughts.
03:20 < Bertram> lol
03:20 < Bertram> Never tell him ;)
03:20 < MrLindeijer> At least I think this is better than relying on some dude that passes by to think out the combat and magic system for us.
03:21 < MrLindeijer> Maybe you remember who I mean. :P
03:21 < Bertram> yep. I'm thinking on that system since some months now, and i guess you too
03:21 < Bertram> lol
03:22 < Bertram> Maci ? or Matt ?
03:22 < MrLindeijer> I think Crush also had some idea though, right?
03:22 < MrLindeijer> I was thinking of Kyokai.
03:24 -!- kNiVeZy [n=knives@0-1pool223-166.nas118.chicago3.il.us.da.qwest.net] has joined #themanaworld
03:24 < MrLindeijer> But also pages like this: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Combat_system
03:26 < MrLindeijer> We should also evaluatie the three existing proposed stat systems on the wiki.
03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Stat_system
03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Skill_system
03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Stat_system_2
03:26 < MrLindeijer> :)
03:28 < MrLindeijer> To me it seems we're heading for an attribute/skill combo similar to The Elder Scrolls.
03:28 < MrLindeijer> Though earlier it has also been going towards a skill-only solution I think.
03:28 < Bertram> Well, I evaluated them all. And my heart of old school RPG gamer dislike them as they're quickly unplayable
03:28 < MrLindeijer> Anyway, more tomorrow.
03:29 < MrLindeijer> Ok. :)
03:29 < MrLindeijer> Good night!
03:29 < Bertram> good night !
03:29 < Bertram> hey
03:29 < Bertram> Did you noted things down or shall I ?
03:29 < MrLindeijer> Hmm I didn't note everything down.
03:30 < Bertram> But you've got the status/attribute/derivative attributes and their names ?
03:31 < MrLindeijer> I'll try to make that complete and put it on the wiki somewhere.
03:31 < Bertram> Ah, and tomorrow, after deciding all that, or while, we should talk back about the design.
03:33 < Bertram> good night anyway
03:34 < Bertram> and thanks for that lengthy talk
03:34 < MrLindeijer> Ok let's see.
03:36 < MrLindeijer> Bertram: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Attributes
03:36 < MrLindeijer> Could you maybe check it quickly to see if you miss something?
03:37 < Bertram> it's ok for me
03:38 < Bertram> You didn't talk aboit the status and derivative ones ?
03:38 < MrLindeijer> Not yet.
03:39 < Bertram> It's a whole thing for me
03:39 < Bertram> But ok for that part anyway
03:41 < MrLindeijer> Ok I've also added Luck and Speed now.
03:41 < MrLindeijer> Even though I think we should leave them out.
03:42 < Bertram> I think they're fine
03:43 < Bertram> Especially with a working animation system
03:43 < Bertram> Speed will become nice
03:43 < MrLindeijer> Well I think we shouldn't make the list so long, hence the thing about choosing a subset of these attributes.
03:44 < MrLindeijer> I'm not saying speed can't increase, just that I don't really like it to be done via a Speed attribute. :)
03:44 < Bertram> So it should be aderivative
03:44 < MrLindeijer> Anyway, sleepy time. :)
03:44 < Bertram> ok. Bye and see ya
03:44 < MrLindeijer> Bye.

The next morning ElvenProgrammer took a look at it:

10:45 < ElvenProgrammer> ning
10:45 < tehfox> have a nice morning. :-)
10:58 < MrLindeijer> Hello.
10:58 < the-me> hi
11:00 < MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: I've had a discussion about attributes with Bertram last night. To help choosing which ones we're going to use, we've summarized the ones in use in other games. I've put this on the wiki here: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Attributes
11:01 < MrLindeijer> I think we should aim for about 6 attributes.
11:01 < ElvenProgrammer> can't agility and speed be merged
11:02 < MrLindeijer> They are different things in The Elder Scrolls.
11:02 < MrLindeijer> Of course some things can be merged.
11:02 < MrLindeijer> But if you'd merge Agility with something, it'd probably be Dexterity.
11:02 < ElvenProgrammer> by "change" you mean chance?
11:02 < MrLindeijer> Hmm yeah.
11:03 < MrLindeijer> Corrected.
11:04 < ElvenProgrammer> well at least i'd consider strength, agility/dexterity, vitality and energy/magic
11:04 < MrLindeijer> The Diablo ones.
11:07 < ElvenProgrammer> ah yeah
11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> i'd like also charisma or luck
11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> and one between wisdom and spirit
11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> 6 should be enough
11:09 < MrLindeijer> I don't like Luck and Speed. :P
11:10 < ElvenProgrammer> at least we agree on speed
11:10 < MrLindeijer> I would like Agility and Dexterity to be separated. In that case, Agility takes part of the role of Speed actually.
11:10 < ElvenProgrammer> should we maybe start with our proposal and go from there?
11:11 < ElvenProgrammer> for me it's: strength, agility, dexterity, vitality, energy, spirit and charisma
11:12 < MrLindeijer> Our proposal?
11:12 < MrLindeijer> Ah I prefer intelligence and willpower for energy and spirit.
11:12 < MrLindeijer> Other than that, the set of attributes is fine with me.
11:13 < ElvenProgrammer> i'm ok with intelligence and willpower, so let's start with those ones ok? can you write them on wiki?
11:13 < MrLindeijer> I'll make them bold maybe?
11:14 < ElvenProgrammer> as you prefer
11:15 -!- tehfox [n=tehfox@dial-d57.213-81-177.telecom.sk] has quit ["Leaving."]
11:16 < MrLindeijer> Ok page updated.
11:16 < MrLindeijer> I like it.
11:17 < ElvenProgrammer> me too, having magic attack and defense somewhat really makes me happy
11:18 < MrLindeijer> Yeah and the same for normal fighting looks nice.
11:19 < ElvenProgrammer> ok ban time
11:19 < MrLindeijer> Do you agree on the derived attributes?
11:19 < MrLindeijer> I guess those are pretty obvious.
11:19 < MrLindeijer> Just have seen things like attack, defence, magic attack and magic defence, and I think that's now already covered by the basic attributes.
11:20 < MrLindeijer> Plus the skills and equipment.
11:20 < ElvenProgrammer> of course i agree