User talk:Dabe/Backstory

A beginning of a rewrite

This is an attempt to de-villainize the Gods and more importantly, to simplify things a bit. Certain spots of the current backstory are very convoluted and either need to be completely rewritten or omitted for the sake of readability. I want non-native english speakers to have a chance to understand at least most of the backstory; to me, it makes simplicity more important than astounding depth. The story depth can come in the form of illustrated stories, which I feel should be another collaborative writing project for this game. The current backstory is little more than a glorified list of events / timeline.. I'd like to develop TMW graphic novels (for the web of course, not print) or at least illustrated short stories, to supply the players with something more character driven to read.

The idea of a visual storyline sounds great, it depends on a really clear and simple story line as you said. Perhaps after the story sections are finished people can make contacts with members of the webcomic community for support. Also what about (and this is somewhat unlikely) roleplayers act out scenes of the history in a video format. I wholeheartedly agree that some of the story line is very convoluted and needs major editing. When you say you want more simple writing I'm hoping you are referring to the story elements and not necessarily the style of writing as while simple writing is certainly more readable it is also less engaging. A fine balance needs to be set between the two and the intended audience needs to be determined (I'm not sure that there is an intended audience set for the game age-wise). Writing for ESL readers seems to be an unfortunate waste of talent. You end of with mediocre writing for two audiences instead of good writing for one audience and hard to read writing for another. I would recommend rather than dumbing down the writing for ESL readers we entice the rather large foreign language community to translate the finished work into their own language with the aid, if needed, of the primary English writers. Booty 08:09, 15 June 2008 (CEST)

That is another point to focus on; characters. Events of the Modern era should speak more often of individuals than the Prehistory.

I agree with this. Good story lines always are built around strong central figures.Booty 08:09, 15 June 2008 (CEST)

Keep in mind that the prehistory is referred to as such because of a catastrophe that separates it from the modern era. One result of this catastrophe was a mass loss of knowledge and information. Society had to start over after the year 0.. an important part of modern society will be archeology and a search for answers. Different people will have different beliefs about the world, the Gods, etc..

In dealing with archaeology and prehistory, prehistory refers to a regions history before written records. Prehistory begins at different points around the world for humans. I feel doubtful that even with a catastrophe and loss of civilization that the entire mana world would stop record keeping or lose all records of history. Rather than referring to it as prehistory it needs to be referred to as pre[event] giving it a clear point in time.Booty 08:09, 15 June 2008 (CEST)

Dabe:Sounds logical enough to me.

Some things that are still missing:

The Sun and The Moon.

Explanation to the death / respawn sequence.

A ancient map of what the world used to look like, when it was all one continent; if you want to draw this, please use the landmass shape in the logo for TMW.

Modern History, but I want to get the Prehistory settled upon before we move on to that.

Please read the following and submit feedback and also keep in mind that this is a work in progress.

Prehistory

The prehistoric era begins with the presumed creation of the universe and ends upon a catastrophic note. The modern era begins after this catasrophe. In relation to the modern calender, no one knows how much time passed during the prehistoric era; the major difference between prehistoric and modern events is the date, or lack thereof. Unlike our real life Gregorian calender, there is a 'year zero' between the prehistoric and modern eras. It is assumed that the dates of some events are exact while others are approximations. If we ever apply dates to prehistoric events, we will probably use a typical numberline-style, as previously mentioned, to include a year zero. Terminology is another point to discuss. Do people refer to prehistoric years as, "X years before zero"..? ..or alternatively, should we could retain the BC/AD terminology and simply redefine the acronyms to suit our needs. (for example: BC might mean "before the catastrophe" .. AD could be something like "after the devastation") This would be tacky, but would keep things familiar.

The current accepted terminology in the scientific publications is BCE and CE or Before Current Era and Current Era since the current era in mana world is referred to a modern why not just us BME and ME. AD is really avioded these days because of the religious connections. Booty 08:55, 15 June 2008 (CEST)

Dabe:I could get used to BME / ME .. any better name ideas for "year 0"..?

No one knows with any level of certainty, how the universe began. The oldest known beings are the Gods, but even they do not know how it all started, or even the details to their own origins. Some of those with knowledge of the Gods believe that they and the universe have simply always existed; a theory which the Gods at least accept as plausible. Each God's earliest memory is one of aimless wandering, about an empty universe. At that time, the Gods were not only unaware of one another, but also of their own potential and significance. After wandering for an unknown period of time, they suddenly met at the very center of the universe, where they each became fixated around a mysterious point of energy. They named this energy 'Mana'. The Gods studied together and became enlightened, attaining full understanding of the flow of Elements which bound them together. Through this understanding, they learned to respect the potential and the dangers of Mana.

My rewrite suggestions: How the universe began is uncertain, even to the Gods. The Gods are the oldest known beings of the universe and are ignorant of even their own creation. Their earliest memories comprise of aimless wandering in a vast empty universe where, for a time, they had no knowledge of each other or even their own power and ability. This timeless wandering came to an abrupt end when the Gods were simultaneously drawn to a mysterious point of energy in the center of the universe. The Gods became fixated and studied together this energy they named Mana and through this .... I had to stop here. I'm not sure what "them" refers to in "bound them together". Booty 08:55, 15 June 2008 (CEST)

Dabe:That's a nice change.. and "them" = the Gods. For the next attempt, let's try to explain it like, "the Gods are bound together by the unending flow of Mana energy, emanating from the center of the universe. The Gods naturally absorb Mana and convert it to Elemental energy.

the Age of Creation

The Gods created Gaea, the world, in the spot where they met; at the center of the universe. It was built for three reasons; first as a testament to their friendship, second as a platform for further creations and third (and most importantly), as a means of sealing Mana. At the time of its creation, Gaea was simply a set of four Elemental realms. The Gods planned to fill these realms with living creatures, but first they had to figure out how to create life. Though their first creatures were impressive, they all eventually grew dangerously powerful, due mostly to their unlimited lifespans. The Gods were able to destroy some of these early creations, but ..

A) use a set of recognizable, mythological creatures, such as Behemoth, Dragon, Kraken, etc..

B) use completely original, fictional names and concepts for each of these creatures.

C) use a combination of recognizable and original.

As a group, these creatures became known as..

A) Beasts

B) Titans

..(insert suggestion)

The first mortals eventually became the foundation to the kingdom of Animal; they were called Amorph, Bird, Fish, Insect, Mammal, Myconoid and Reptile.

Satisfied with the trial-run, the Gods proceeded to design a vast assortment of animals, using the originals as templates.

Gaea was brimming with life, but the Gods still had an insatiable urge to create. With space for new creations running low, they began to argue over what to make next.

After stewing over the problem for quite a while, the Gods decided that with such a vast universe, that it would be more interesting to create new worlds, instead of continually redesigning Gaea.

The Gods prized the Animals, but were not confident in their ability to exercise intelligent judgment, in case of any unforeseen emergency. Not wanting to leave Gaea (and Mana) unattended, the Gods created the Espers; Ifriton, Sparron, Talpan and Tritan.

The Gods spent time training the Espers, to act in their stead. The Espers reached a form of enlightenment, comparable to that of the Gods. They were taught about Mana and its universal significance. The Gods ordered the Espers never to attempt to seek out Mana, going so far as to restrict travel through the very central part of the world. It is covered by an inhospitable mountain-range and referred to as "the forbidden zone"..

"the forbidden zone" is just a temporary name .. I just wanted to drive the point across. Suggestions?

Satisfied with their protective measures, the Gods depart, leaving Gaea for the first time since it's creation.

the Dawn of Society

Under the knowledgeable care of the Espers, Gaea remains in perfect ecological harmony. Everything was going well until the Espers began to feel bored and lonely. Observing the animals, it seemed to the Espers that a possible key to avoiding boredom might be a limited lifespan. The animals were made to mate and multiply, which seemed to be a possible answer to loneliness.

Wishing nothing more than to end their sorrow, but not wanting to disturb the Gods, the Espers take it upon themselves to modify their own design. Each Esper split, forming new male and female incarnations. The Espers, now mortal like the animals, must procreate to survive.

The Espers flourish as mortals. Each race calls a particular area of Gaea its homeland. It is from these homelands that the races expand, until civilization covers the world. For a long time, there are only the four races, still upholding the namesake of the original Espers.

The races gradually interbreed, eventually creating four new races, called Sprites; Arboren, Glacean, Orelon and Raijen.

the Age of Ancients

The Gods have been gone for a thousand years and Gaea is still doing well, though it has changed considerably. Espers and Sprites have maintained a peaceful society for many generations. Collectively, their knowledge has increased, but they have lost touch with the Gods' teachings. Though the forbidden zone has still never been breeched, it is now merely a superstition that keeps everyone away. Instead of it being the Gods' law, passed down through the generations, it has been reduced a fear of bad luck. Unfortunately, bad luck would not be enough to keep everyone away, forever.

the Rise of Azerel

Few facts exist regarding Azerel's origin; it is unknown to which race he belonged. That information has been long lost and remains a great source of speculation, amongst modern day historians. We know that Azerel was a traveler and that many of those who had encountered him, considered him to be mentally imbalanced. He was driven by an idea, which many found to be anti-social and violent. His goal in life was to create a new form of entertainment, which he called 'Battle'.. The concept revolved around the spectacle of various creatures attempting to damage and even destroy each other. The idea was completely unpalatable to the ancient civilization and was never well-received. Having traveled the entire world in search of an audience and finding only criticism and rejection, Azerel became bitter and angry toward society. The only idea that he felt passion for had been denounced by everyone. The more time passed, the angrier he became, until one day, he vowed to force his idea upon the world.

Feeling unwelcome within society, Azerel withdrew to the only place that had not yet been populated; the forbidden zone. It was upon the area's tallest mountain which he chose to build his lair. Unbeknownst to Azerel, this mountain happened to lie directly at the center of the world; which I'm sure you recall, is also the center of the universe.

While constructing his tower, he began to sense an unknown power deep beneath the mountain, so he began to tunnel downward. It took quite a while, but Azerel finally discovered Mana. Immediately giving in to curiosity, Azerel thrust his arm into the strange energy and was instantly transformed, becoming the first Demon.

Harnassing this power, Azerel proceeded to transform others in this manner; these are the forefathers of today's Demon society. Few go willingly. The passive society is simply helpless to resist. After swiftly taking control of the world, some actually begin to support him. In an effort to strenghten his grip on society, Azerel decided to gather an inner circle, so he began combing the world for candidates. At the end of his search, he found himself in the company of eight of the most powerful mortals in the world, who were each unquestionably loyal to him.

What do we call these people.. Azerel's Generals? The Eight Devils of such-and-such? (reference to Ninja Scroll).. Suggestions?

Year 0: the Reign of Azerel

I am in the middle of writing this part, but to put briefly.. Azerel rules for one year, which for now, we'll call "Year 0" .. marking the change in eras from Prehistoric to Modern. At the end of this year, eight heroes emerge and destroy Azerel's inner circle, but are defeated by Azerel afterward. Before Azerel can finish them off, the Gods return.

The Gods underestimate Azerel, who resists their attempts at persuasion. When his intentions of conquest are made clear, the Gods try to neutralize his power. Azerel laughs and shows them how it's done. The resulting expulsion of energy sends waves of destruction across the land. Many are killed, presumably including Azerel. The world is shattered and society is left in ruins.

Suggested changes PT1

Okay the story is under review in the forums. I just wanted to add my comments on the current one in case it is used as a starting point. Booty 01:47, 11 June 2008 (CEST)

Many ages ago, the world was entangled by war.

Okay ages suggests periods of transition, which is fine but these ages might need to be explained and described to better understand the depth of time and the current status of the world. Also, world being this world or some other it seems a bit ambiguous.

From the smallest tribe to the grandest of kingdoms, virtually every discernible group of mankind...

While I like the world virtually most of the time it seems to take away from the storytelling narrative, nearly or almost I feel are better choices. Discernible can be dropped, if they are a group, they are discernible. Also of mankind can be dropped, tribes and kingdoms already suggest some type of people unless there is a reason to specify humans, but there does not seem to be a reason implied from the current story or the in-game elements.

...was somehow involved.

The sentence really could be worded better I think. actually I'm stopping here and just rewriting it.

Through the darkness of war however, a light of truth somehow shone through. Amidst the previously unstoppable fighting, it was revealed that four manipulative gods were behind the chaos and confusion; that all of the misunderstandings leading to the generations of bloodshed, had been initiated by them.

People immediately stopped fighting one another, redirecting their aggression toward the Gods. Though they had destroyed much of their own civilization, ancient people were still quite powerful and in the end of the conflict, overpowered the Gods, banishing them in an explosion of magical energy. The resulting wave of destruction resonated across the globe, fragmenting the once solitary continent and killing millions.

Generations have passed since that great disaster and people are slowly but surely, picking up the pieces of society. Though the world-wide hostilities seem to have stopped, such peace is often fleeting..

..for an old and forgotten threat is looming in the background, plotting to make history repeat itself.

Booty 01:49, 11 June 2008 (CEST)

Dabe:To be quite honest, I only ever intended this as a sort of intro / teaser line for the game. Like something that you might read on the back of the box, were it a commercial game. Another use would be for text during an opening sequence or demo. At any rate, the story is undergoing some changes that will require a new intro-line be written. Maybe we should revisit this matter after we decide on some things about the story.

---

Suggested changes PT2

Many ages ago, the world became embroiled in blood. All of mankind, from the most modest tribesmen to the grandest of kings, became entangled in warfare. In the darkest hour of mankind's self slaughter when all lost hope for peace a shimmering truth was revealed. The four manipulative gods were responsible for the undoing of mankind.

Amidst the previously unstoppable fighting, it was revealed that four manipulative gods were behind the chaos and confusion; that all of the misunderstandings leading to the generations of bloodshed, had been initiated by them.

Mankind became unified and directed their immense war fed aggression towards the gods. While the great works and civilizations of man long since vanished as a result of endless destruction, eons of battle and violence made men well versed in methods of combats, including those arcane and battle-wrought. The war-hardened people overpowered the terrible gods and banished them from the world with an explosion of magical energy of immeasurable magnitude. The destructive energy of the blast ripped across the world's solitary continent and tore it asunder. Millions were killed and the surviving peoples were separated by seemingly unsurmountable waters and treacherous war-torn wasteland.

Since that time mankind has endured and have slowly began rebuilding the grandeur that was lost. While mankind has found peace since the time of great destruction, an old enemy looms in the shadows, threatening to repeat a terrible past.

Okay, I rewrote it in a manner more suitable to me. Tell me what you think, don't worry I am highly critical of others and expect them to be so with me. No sparing feeling. Just keep in mind that I went through this once and I'm too lazy to proof it. It is better if others do that anyway.

Some things should be added to this story: More information about the gods Background about the "world" like the name and the laws of physics applicable, an old looking map of world before the breakup would be great A better sense of time

Booty 02:47, 11 June 2008 (CEST)

Silly me I just looked at the timeline and found it had a lot more information than the background. I'll update my post above to reflect the information in there. Booty 02:53, 11 June 2008 (CEST)

Okay me again. I decided to step back from this. Looking over the other pages there seems to be a large amount of content and many problems. In itself that wouldn't be a problem except I don't see a clear, consistent and organized method of editing, contributing and improving the material. Booty 03:03, 11 June 2008 (CEST)

Dabe:This is true. Because this is the only online, collaborative writing project I've ever worked on, I'm at a loss for an experienced answer to the problem of submitting story ideas. Hopefully, by getting the discussion tab moving again, you've nudged that problem a bit so that it might be addressed soon. Someone mentioned a writing section on the forum and it's something that I've wondered about for a while. Story items would be quickly buried in the content forum.

The other obvious option is the usually quiet #tmwart channel. Writing could be considered a form of art, I guess. So long as we can get there at the same time, we should be able to talk it up pretty well about story issues / suggestions / etc.. I will finally be getting back on IRC tomorrow, so starting in the morning, you should be able to find me there.

I first came across the storyline through the forum mention. I really thought that this was all there was to the story line. Shortly after posting the above I realized I only found the tail of the monster. I realized that this page was only a quick summation based on whatever material the of the story already had. My efforts above were pretty pointless as this page is something you would work on after the rest of the story was filled out.

The only online collaborative editing/creation I've done online has been wikipedia. So when I was looking at the rest of the monst...er story line I was expecting some sort of format based on that. Collaborative writing really does work out well as long as everyone understands what is going on in terms of proposing changes and making them. Currently on the other pages there are a variety of styles of editing in play, some pages have on going discussions about the story on the story page rather than the discussion. Other pages have that and the discussion in the discussion area.

What I was expecting was a story page that represents the (un)finished product with each section of story separated into editable sections (to avoid edit conflicts). Any discussion I expected in the discussion tab so that the reasoning and thought behind parts of the story would be preserved and organized.

I think that the development of the story should be discussed in the discussion sections rather than a forum. It is easier to track changes and implement ideas and gets people familiar with the wiki editing style.

Regarding the writing you posted under "A beginning of a rewrite " I'm sorry to say that I really can't comment on most of it as I am not familiar with the storyline. Also I hinted at this earlier but I think that at least some of the storyline has some real issues in that it seems amateurish. I'm not specifying which parts as I want to spare peoples feelings, but it is to be expected as I suppose most of the contributors have limited fiction writing experience (like me). I would make changes or suggestions on those pages directly however the current organization is very off-putting. Booty 07:52, 15 June 2008 (CEST)

The main reason it seems amateurish, is just as you said; I'm not any sort of a professional writer. However, if you're referring to the general tackiness of the entire storyline, you should know that it's intended.. because we want TMW to feel like a spiritual successor to a past generation of games, I thought it was appropriate to set it up with a similarly lame, often-predictable storyline. The way I see it, most video games have laughably lame stories. ;) Overall, the rewrite has some typos and some present/past-tense inconsistencies, but it's a draft which was transcribed from a notebook, at like 3 in the morning; it's bound to have some issues.

Typos and grammar usage wasn't what I was referring to, those are expected only heavy editing can get those and sometimes not all. As far as predictable, there are elements of the story that are not very predictable whatsoever. I tried looking for example I found a week ago but I think I'm searching in the wrong place. When I find it I'll point it out. Booty 00:37, 16 June 2008 (CEST)

Bottom line; there are issues of intended tackiness that you should keep in mind while critiquing the story itself. If it's something beyond these apparent shortcomings.. like some glaring proof that I didn't pay attention in college, or that I haven't read a book in over a year, feel free to explain, so that I can fix it. Something else to remember is that the story should not be so convoluted, that non-native English speakers have a hard time following it. This was part of my beef with my currently posted version; too convoluted. There needs to be a solid foundation for future story development, but enough left to the imagination, to offer some flexibility.

The sections I read that put me off weren't really tacky (I'm rather fond of tackiness) but rather were convoluted to the point where I was struggling to understand what they were trying to say. Again I am having a hard time finding the example I am referring to (maybe someone already fixed it?). Booty 00:37, 16 June 2008 (CEST)

The.. "monster" as you call it. Is a mess, but that's part of the reason I want to start yet another rewriting initiative, with more emphasis on group discussion along the way. One reason the Modern Era sucks, is because we have had hangups in system development. I couldn't proceed too far without understanding how our magic system was going to work, since this is a pivotal aspect of the storyline. This is one reason for the comments slipping on to the foot of the article, in this case, though I can assure you it's happened in quite a few other, non-story-related articles. (having a "comments" section on the bottom of the article, for example)

I have never claimed to hold a degree in wiki-etiquette. While I agree that the story is essentially my mess, I refuse to accept that it's the only part of the wiki that is offending in this fashion, though it may currently be the most flamboyantly off-standard. If it bothers you this much, perhaps you should consider helping out with wiki cleanup/management, to keep things laid out, according to an exacting standard. There are general management / communication issues affecting the organization of the wiki, that must be addressed for the cleanup to ever actually happen. Rest assured we will continue to plug away at it until it feels right, but sorry if the mess scared you off. :(

Please email me with any scathing feedback, if you're concerned about the chance of publicly humiliating me; dave(at)themanaworld.org -16:41, 15 June 2008 (CEST)

I can understand the problem with the modern era, it does seem odd that a storyline focused on magic and a game called Mana World doesn't have any magic. I'm also sure that the storyline isn't the section of the wiki affected like this. It is off putting because it is out of place to the reader and confusing. I can start working on the cleanup in a general way until specifications of the editing process are made (although these shouldn't get too complex because that is even more off putting). Most of my scathing feedback is regarding the style of the editing rather than the story itself, except for one part which I can't find at the moment. The story on the backstory and the prehistory seems fine if not better than fine to me. It is a lot easier editing a story than creating one. Hopefully more editors will get involved as I think they would enrich the writing with every edit. I hope it is not a problem but I'm moving the discussion of the prehistory and the modern age to those pages. Booty 00:37, 16 June 2008 (CEST)