|
|
| (10 intermediate revisions by 4 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| == Discussions leading to this document == | | === Comparison with other games === |
|
| |
|
| === June 9th, 2006 ===
| | Below a list of attributes encountered in other role playing games. |
|
| |
|
| A discussion about our UML design took place before this, and then changed to a discussion about the character attributes to use. We'll jump right in at that point:
| | {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" |
| | ! style="text-align: left; background-color: rgb(240,240,240);" | Name |
| | ! style="text-align: left; background-color: rgb(240,240,240);" | General effect |
| | ! style="text-align: left; background-color: rgb(240,240,240);" | 1 |
| | ! style="text-align: left; background-color: rgb(240,240,240);" | 2 |
| | ! style="text-align: left; background-color: rgb(240,240,240);" | 3 |
| | |- |
| | |''Strength'' |
| | |Increases damage and max inventory weight |
| | |X |
| | |X |
| | |X |
| | |- |
| | |''Agility'' |
| | |Increases chance to hit and walking speed |
| | | |
| | |X |
| | | |
| | |- |
| | |''Dexterity'' |
| | |Increases chance of evasion and missile accuracy |
| | |X |
| | | |
| | |X |
| | |- |
| | |''Vitality'' / Endurance / Constitution / Fortitude |
| | |Increases health and stamina regeneration rate |
| | |X |
| | |X |
| | |X |
| | |- |
| | |Energy / ''Intelligence'' / Magic / Mentality |
| | |Increases mana and mana regeneration rate |
| | |X |
| | |X |
| | |X |
| | |- |
| | |Wisdom |
| | |Increases how much you can remember (spells) |
| | | |
| | | |
| | |X |
| | |- |
| | |Spirit / ''Willpower'' / Awareness |
| | |Increases magic defence |
| | | |
| | |X |
| | | |
| | |- |
| | |Personality / ''Charisma'' |
| | |Related to bartering, getting information, getting into fights, diplomacy skills |
| | | |
| | |X |
| | |X |
| | |- |
| | |Luck |
| | |Increases luck in many areas |
| | | |
| | |X |
| | | |
| | |- |
| | |Speed |
| | |Determines how fast you can do things |
| | | |
| | |X |
| | | |
| | |} |
|
| |
|
| <pre>
| | # Diablo ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_(computer_game)#Character_Attributes attributes]) |
| 02:34 < Bertram> anyway, i'd be for : Strength, Vitality, Agility, Intelligence, Spirit, Luck for status ones
| | # The Elder Scrolls (attributes in [http://www.svatopluk.com/arena/manual/stats.stm Arena], [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Character_Creation Daggerfall] and [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Attributes Oblivion]) |
| 02:34 < MrLindeijer> I'm a fan of The Elder Scroll series and Diablo, so I'm familiar with their set of attributes and statusses.
| | # Angband ([http://www.zangband.org/Docs/Character-Attributes.aspx attributes]) |
| 02:35 < Bertram> and : attack, defense, Mattack, Mdefense, speed, and Breath for attributes ones
| |
| 02:35 < Bertram> It's taken from a free RPG I used to play and it worked very well
| |
| 02:35 < MrLindeijer> Those are both lists of attributes.
| |
| 02:35 < MrLindeijer> The status fields were health, mana, stamina.
| |
| 02:36 < Bertram> Attack = Strength + SwordAttack
| |
| 02:36 < Bertram> HP, MP come with Attack and the other, right
| |
| 02:36 < MrLindeijer> Hmm I'd call that a derived attribute.
| |
| 02:36 < Bertram> Ahh, i see what you meant by status now
| |
| 02:37 < Bertram> So a being has a status(HP, MP, Breath or Stamina), attributes(Att, Def, MAtt, MDef, Speed), and derived attributes
| |
| 02:38 < Bertram> So a being has a status(HP, MP, Breath or Stamina), attributes(Strength, Vitality, Agility, Intelligence, Spirit, Luck), and derived attributes(Att, Def, MAtt, MDef, Speed)*
| |
| 02:39 < Bertram> What do you think for a proposition ?
| |
| 02:39 < MrLindeijer> What's Spirit?
| |
| 02:40 < Bertram> Intelligence would be more used for the number of spell you can use and MAtt, Spirit would be your Mdef, maybe.
| |
| 02:41 < Bertram> or Spirit would be Matt (cause of the Spirit Strength) and Intelligence the Mdef
| |
| 02:41 < Bertram> At least, I'd like to make a proposal on the terms used in the new server.
| |
| 02:42 < MrLindeijer> I'm writing down a list with some explanations.
| |
| 02:42 < MrLindeijer> I'm not fond of Luck.
| |
| 02:43 < Bertram> Luck is the sand in the bottle. We could use it for a little more of randomization ?
| |
| 02:44 < MrLindeijer> Well I don't like the idea that someone could simply get more lucky because of an attribute.
| |
| 02:45 < Bertram> Someone more lucky has got less in Strength. Many games are using luck in fact.
| |
| 02:45 < Bertram> But I can understand your cold
| |
| 02:45 < MrLindeijer> What about Wisdom or Dexterity?
| |
| 02:46 < Bertram> Dexterity would be Agility (Quite the same for me.)
| |
| 02:46 < Bertram> in a game though :)
| |
| 02:46 < MrLindeijer> I think of them as:
| |
| 02:46 < MrLindeijer> Agility (increases change to hit and walking speed)
| |
| 02:46 < MrLindeijer> Dexterity (increases change of evasion and missile accuracy)
| |
| 02:46 < Bertram> Wisdom could separate the intelligence for Mdef and the number of spell or the level of them you can have
| |
| 02:47 < Bertram> Interresting distinction...
| |
| 02:47 < Bertram> I agree about it
| |
| 02:49 < MrLindeijer> I agree they're basically the same, but the distinction allows for more variability in what you focus on or what your character behaves like.
| |
| 02:49 < MrLindeijer> I'm not sure though, if we should really modify walking speed.
| |
| 02:50 -!- Bertram25 [n=yohann@84.7.69.228] has joined #themanaworld
| |
| 02:51 < Bertram> Slightly, we should yes
| |
| 02:51 < Bertram> at 1, you walk at, for instance 1 square / sec. at 255, you do the double.
| |
| 02:52 < Bertram> It's very little for a progression
| |
| 02:52 < Bertram> but makes it
| |
| 02:52 -!- Bertram [n=yohann@84.7.69.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
| |
| 02:52 -!- Bertram25 is now known as Bertram
| |
| 02:53 < Bertram> ah, better
| |
| 02:55 < MrLindeijer> Ah yeah, now I remember.
| |
| 02:55 < MrLindeijer> Instead of Spirit for magic defence, I'm used to Willpower.
| |
| 02:55 < MrLindeijer> And we haven't mentioned Endurance yet.
| |
| 02:56 < Bertram> Breath was that in my head
| |
| 02:56 < MrLindeijer> I thought that was stamina.
| |
| 02:58 < MrLindeijer> Ah cool, here's a good reference on the Daggerfall attributes: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Character_Creation
| |
| 02:58 < Bertram> good
| |
| 02:58 < MrLindeijer> Strength, Intelligence and Agility are in line with our thought already.
| |
| 02:58 < MrLindeijer> thoughts*
| |
| 02:58 < MrLindeijer> Apparently they didn't separate out Dexterity.
| |
| 02:59 < MrLindeijer> Endurance looks like what we called Vitality.
| |
| 03:00 < Bertram> I'd like to add Agility, though
| |
| 03:01 < MrLindeijer> I don't like so much their Willpower, Personality, Speed and Luck attributes. In my opinion they're too specific.
| |
| 03:01 < MrLindeijer> I mean they modify only one aspect.
| |
| 03:01 < MrLindeijer> Yes I thought we already had Agility.
| |
| 03:02 < Bertram> Personality is something we should add by Diplomacy handling or somewhat
| |
| 03:02 < Bertram> between Guilds or something like that
| |
| 03:03 < MrLindeijer> Two versions later (Oblivion), they had still the same attributes: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Attributes
| |
| 03:03 < MrLindeijer> We can also call Personality the Charisma.
| |
| 03:04 < MrLindeijer> Ah you mean to use it more for disposition.
| |
| 03:04 < Bertram> Disposition ?
| |
| 03:05 < MrLindeijer> Like whether you are enemy or friends with somebody.
| |
| 03:07 < Bertram> yes, exactly. And would be different for each guilds
| |
| 03:07 < Bertram> something like 0-9 bad, 10 neutral, 11-20 good, or something like that
| |
| 03:08 < MrLindeijer> Maybe the meaning I'm looking for is "an attitude of mind especially one that favors one alternative over others"
| |
| 03:08 < MrLindeijer> I mean it as something relative from you to another person.
| |
| 03:09 < Bertram> Affinity
| |
| 03:09 < MrLindeijer> But that's not really what the word disposition means.
| |
| 03:09 < Bertram> Sympathy ;)
| |
| 03:09 < MrLindeijer> Something like that.
| |
| 03:09 < Bertram> I like Affinity
| |
| 03:09 < Bertram> Sounds
| |
| 03:13 < Bertram> So, to summarize. I agree with Agility/Dexterity. I'd like to see an Affinity system. We can use Intelligence for Spell Numbers and Levels and Wisdom for Magic Attack
| |
| 03:13 < Bertram> We could also use Willpower or Spirit for Magic Defence
| |
| 03:13 < Bertram> What do you agree with ?
| |
| 03:16 < MrLindeijer> I also see Diablo basically called Intelligence Energy.
| |
| 03:16 < MrLindeijer> I'm not sure yet, I think we should make a list of all the stuff we have encountered so far and their meanings.
| |
| 03:16 < MrLindeijer> Then tomorrow we should pick a subset which we think fits well together, and refine their meaning as a group.
| |
| 03:17 < MrLindeijer> I'm saying tomorrow, because now I should really be going to bed.
| |
| 03:17 < Bertram> ok. I'll keep that in mind. Hope to see you soon
| |
| 03:17 < MrLindeijer> I think I'll get on IRC from like 11:00.
| |
| 03:19 < MrLindeijer> I liked that we've been talking about this and I think we're making good progress, both with these attributes as with the world design.
| |
| 03:19 < MrLindeijer> I hope with the input from Doener and Elven, we'll be able to agree on these things.
| |
| 03:20 < Bertram> me too, some fog on this will leave soon, i geuss
| |
| 03:20 < Bertram> guess*
| |
| 03:20 < MrLindeijer> And whoever else cares to share his thoughts.
| |
| 03:20 < Bertram> lol
| |
| 03:20 < Bertram> Never tell him ;)
| |
| 03:20 < MrLindeijer> At least I think this is better than relying on some dude that passes by to think out the combat and magic system for us.
| |
| 03:21 < MrLindeijer> Maybe you remember who I mean. :P
| |
| 03:21 < Bertram> yep. I'm thinking on that system since some months now, and i guess you too
| |
| 03:21 < Bertram> lol
| |
| 03:22 < Bertram> Maci ? or Matt ?
| |
| 03:22 < MrLindeijer> I think Crush also had some idea though, right?
| |
| 03:22 < MrLindeijer> I was thinking of Kyokai.
| |
| 03:24 -!- kNiVeZy [n=knives@0-1pool223-166.nas118.chicago3.il.us.da.qwest.net] has joined #themanaworld
| |
| 03:24 < MrLindeijer> But also pages like this: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Combat_system
| |
| 03:26 < MrLindeijer> We should also evaluatie the three existing proposed stat systems on the wiki.
| |
| 03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Stat_system
| |
| 03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Skill_system
| |
| 03:26 < MrLindeijer> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Stat_system_2
| |
| 03:26 < MrLindeijer> :)
| |
| 03:28 < MrLindeijer> To me it seems we're heading for an attribute/skill combo similar to The Elder Scrolls.
| |
| 03:28 < MrLindeijer> Though earlier it has also been going towards a skill-only solution I think.
| |
| 03:28 < Bertram> Well, I evaluated them all. And my heart of old school RPG gamer dislike them as they're quickly unplayable
| |
| 03:28 < MrLindeijer> Anyway, more tomorrow.
| |
| 03:29 < MrLindeijer> Ok. :)
| |
| 03:29 < MrLindeijer> Good night!
| |
| 03:29 < Bertram> good night !
| |
| 03:29 < Bertram> hey
| |
| 03:29 < Bertram> Did you noted things down or shall I ?
| |
| 03:29 < MrLindeijer> Hmm I didn't note everything down.
| |
| 03:30 < Bertram> But you've got the status/attribute/derivative attributes and their names ?
| |
| 03:31 < MrLindeijer> I'll try to make that complete and put it on the wiki somewhere.
| |
| 03:31 < Bertram> Ah, and tomorrow, after deciding all that, or while, we should talk back about the design.
| |
| 03:33 < Bertram> good night anyway
| |
| 03:34 < Bertram> and thanks for that lengthy talk
| |
| 03:34 < MrLindeijer> Ok let's see.
| |
| 03:36 < MrLindeijer> Bertram: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Attributes
| |
| 03:36 < MrLindeijer> Could you maybe check it quickly to see if you miss something?
| |
| 03:37 < Bertram> it's ok for me
| |
| 03:38 < Bertram> You didn't talk aboit the status and derivative ones ?
| |
| 03:38 < MrLindeijer> Not yet.
| |
| 03:39 < Bertram> It's a whole thing for me
| |
| 03:39 < Bertram> But ok for that part anyway
| |
| 03:41 < MrLindeijer> Ok I've also added Luck and Speed now.
| |
| 03:41 < MrLindeijer> Even though I think we should leave them out.
| |
| 03:42 < Bertram> I think they're fine
| |
| 03:43 < Bertram> Especially with a working animation system
| |
| 03:43 < Bertram> Speed will become nice
| |
| 03:43 < MrLindeijer> Well I think we shouldn't make the list so long, hence the thing about choosing a subset of these attributes.
| |
| 03:44 < MrLindeijer> I'm not saying speed can't increase, just that I don't really like it to be done via a Speed attribute. :)
| |
| 03:44 < Bertram> So it should be aderivative
| |
| 03:44 < MrLindeijer> Anyway, sleepy time. :)
| |
| 03:44 < Bertram> ok. Bye and see ya
| |
| 03:44 < MrLindeijer> Bye.
| |
| </pre>
| |
|
| |
|
| The next morning ElvenProgrammer took a look at it:
| | === From level to character attributes === |
|
| |
|
| <pre>
| | ''I think when you increase level you should get a fixed amount of points that you can use to increase your attributes. Let's say attributes go from 1 to 100, and start at 20. With the current number of attributes, that's 7 * 80 = 560 points necessary to get the theoretical maxed out character. The character goes from level 1 to 100, so per level increase we need to get 560 / 99 = 5 points. I said "theoretical maxed out character" because with it being exponentially harder to increase your skills as they come closer to 100, we can easily make it virtually impossible to actually achieve this. When starting with attributes at 20 seems too high, we can also start with attributes at 5 and go for 6 points per level.'' --[[User:Bjørn|Bjørn]] 17:13, 10 June 2006 (CEST) |
| 10:45 < ElvenProgrammer> ning
| | |
| 10:45 < tehfox> have a nice morning. :-)
| | :Note: There is a disadvantage to deriving a level from skills: because it is an ''average'', it is not a useful number for the user to predict the outcome of battles, competitions, etc that vary in their use of the skills. Perhaps one could have a "combat level", "magic level", and an "occupation level" to fix this without having to actually compare characters on a skill-by-skill basis, or maybe something similar. --[[User:Blash|Blash]] 18:16, 15 November 2007 (CET) |
| 10:58 < MrLindeijer> Hello.
| | ::You can't use the level anyway for predicting the outcome of battles, since you don't know the level of your opponent unless you asked for it. And even if we had levels for different categories, it wouldn't be much more useful in my opinion. The level is meant to be a kind of average, since it represents your overal advancement in the game. --[[User:Bjørn|Bjørn]] 16:31, 19 November 2007 (CET) |
| 10:58 < the-me> hi
| | :::I see. So the level would only be used as a guild/faction/player points and/or ranking mechanism, and not used in combat or skills? --[[User:Blash|Blash]] 22:58, 19 November 2007 (CET) |
| 11:00 < MrLindeijer> ElvenProgrammer: I've had a discussion about attributes with Bertram last night. To help choosing which ones we're going to use, we've summarized the ones in use in other games. I've put this on the wiki here: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Attributes
| | ::::Yes, the overall character level plays no direct role for skills or combat as far as I am aware. --[[User:Bjørn|Bjørn]] 21:26, 4 September 2008 (CEST) |
| 11:01 < MrLindeijer> I think we should aim for about 6 attributes.
| |
| 11:01 < ElvenProgrammer> can't agility and speed be merged
| |
| 11:02 < MrLindeijer> They are different things in The Elder Scrolls.
| |
| 11:02 < MrLindeijer> Of course some things can be merged.
| |
| 11:02 < MrLindeijer> But if you'd merge Agility with something, it'd probably be Dexterity.
| |
| 11:02 < ElvenProgrammer> by "change" you mean chance?
| |
| 11:02 < MrLindeijer> Hmm yeah.
| |
| 11:03 < MrLindeijer> Corrected.
| |
| 11:04 < ElvenProgrammer> well at least i'd consider strength, agility/dexterity, vitality and energy/magic
| |
| 11:04 < MrLindeijer> The Diablo ones.
| |
| 11:07 < ElvenProgrammer> ah yeah
| |
| 11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> i'd like also charisma or luck
| |
| 11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> and one between wisdom and spirit
| |
| 11:08 < ElvenProgrammer> 6 should be enough
| |
| 11:09 < MrLindeijer> I don't like Luck and Speed. :P
| |
| 11:10 < ElvenProgrammer> at least we agree on speed
| |
| 11:10 < MrLindeijer> I would like Agility and Dexterity to be separated. In that case, Agility takes part of the role of Speed actually.
| |
| 11:10 < ElvenProgrammer> should we maybe start with our proposal and go from there?
| |
| 11:11 < ElvenProgrammer> for me it's: strength, agility, dexterity, vitality, energy, spirit and charisma
| |
| 11:12 < MrLindeijer> Our proposal?
| |
| 11:12 < MrLindeijer> Ah I prefer intelligence and willpower for energy and spirit.
| |
| 11:12 < MrLindeijer> Other than that, the set of attributes is fine with me.
| |
| 11:13 < ElvenProgrammer> i'm ok with intelligence and willpower, so let's start with those ones ok? can you write them on wiki?
| |
| 11:13 < MrLindeijer> I'll make them bold maybe?
| |
| 11:14 < ElvenProgrammer> as you prefer
| |
| 11:15 -!- tehfox [n=tehfox@dial-d57.213-81-177.telecom.sk] has quit ["Leaving."]
| |
| 11:16 < MrLindeijer> Ok page updated.
| |
| 11:16 < MrLindeijer> I like it.
| |
| 11:17 < ElvenProgrammer> me too, having magic attack and defense somewhat really makes me happy
| |
| 11:18 < MrLindeijer> Yeah and the same for normal fighting looks nice.
| |
| 11:19 < ElvenProgrammer> ok ban time
| |
| 11:19 < MrLindeijer> Do you agree on the derived attributes?
| |
| 11:19 < MrLindeijer> I guess those are pretty obvious.
| |
| 11:19 < MrLindeijer> Just have seen things like attack, defence, magic attack and magic defence, and I think that's now already covered by the basic attributes.
| |
| 11:20 < MrLindeijer> Plus the skills and equipment.
| |
| 11:20 < ElvenProgrammer> of course i agree
| |
| </pre>
| |
