Archive talk:Artist meeting 15/09/05

[20:49] + ChanServ enables 'Op' status for ElvenProgrammer
[20:49] + ManaEgg enables 'Op' status for ElvenProgrammer
[20:49] * ElvenProgrammer * who's ready for the meeting?
[20:49] * Talaroc * so, at this point, for the update to include the new playerset, there needs to be standing, walking, sitting, attacking (knife and bow) and death, right?
[20:50] * Rotonen * yeah
[20:50] * Talaroc * ok
[20:50] * Crush * i think i am ready
[20:50] * ElvenProgrammer * yup
[20:50] * Rotonen * since we don't have idle animations, yet ;P
[20:50] ^ m[a]tt is now known as MrGoogle
[20:50] * Talaroc * just making sure the getting hit one didnt need to be in there yet
[20:50] * Crush * climbing could be useful, too
[20:50] * ElvenProgrammer * Talaroc: did you get any further?
[20:50] ^ MrGoogle is now known as m[a]tt
[20:50] * Crush * i planned to integrate ladders
[20:50] * Rotonen * Talaroc: i don't think it's necessary just yet :)
[20:50] * Rotonen * we just need something at the moment
[20:51] * Rotonen * Crush: all in good time
[20:51] * Rotonen * i don't think our current server can handle that
[20:51] * maci * yeah .. i loved the climbing like in terranigma 
[20:51] * maci * it also had great jumb and attack things
[20:51] * Rotonen * but every extra animation set for the basic player sprite causes extra work for items
[20:51] * Talaroc * Elven: still getting my stuff in order.  some of it's being irritating.  but i'll probably upload this weekend.
[20:51] * maci * *jump
[20:51] * ElvenProgrammer * damn pajarico wasn't able to connect it seems
[20:51] * ElvenProgrammer * Talaroc: glad to hear that
[20:51] * Rotonen * well it's still not :00
[20:52] * Talaroc * Rotonen: not too much though, most of the time the extra item frames are just simple translation-rotations
[20:52] * maci * Rotonen: yeah but whats more work.. to do an item with like 30 litle picutres.. or do 15 .. and after a half year start on working to add the other 15 to the item sprites
[20:54] * treo * ok, I'm back
[20:54] * treo * but I'm also not an artist ^^
[20:55] * ElvenProgrammer * hmm not too much to say though iru and modanung are away as well as jetryl :/
[20:55] * maci * Talaroc: ever played terranigma?
[20:55] * Rotonen * Talaroc: depends :)
[20:55] * ElvenProgrammer * Talaroc has got no updates, so Crush let's start with your progress, anything new since the last post in the forum?
[20:56] * Crush * as you all should now im still working at the woodland tileset.
[20:56] * Crush * my main focus in the last days were the cliffs which got improved a lot. but they still lack some critical tiles and the grass integration. i also made a 2nd grass tile and some minor stuff.
[20:56] * Talaroc * Maci: nope
[20:56] * Crush * im still confident that i will have it finished before version .17 so that we can present an entirely new enviroment to the players.
[20:56] * ElvenProgrammer * Talaroc: what time is it there?
[20:56] * Rotonen * well i'm glad Crush and Talaroc are here, the persons with whom i need to talk to the most
[20:56] * maci * Talaroc: you may want to try to get a inspiration of what animations would be useable
[20:56] * treo * 20:57 here
[20:57] * Rotonen * Crush: you're not taking mapping time into account :)
[20:57] * Talaroc * Elven: 2:00pm
[20:57] * ElvenProgrammer * Crush: it will hardly be added to .17 but for sure in .18
[20:57] * Crush * we still got 2 weeks left
[20:57] * Talaroc * got about another 5-10 minutes before i gotta go
[20:57] * Rotonen * so what's the most recent playerset and the most recent woodland tileset ?
[20:57] * ElvenProgrammer * Talaroc: ok
[20:58] * Talaroc * ...oh yeah, which reminds me: the saturation of the woodland tiles.
[20:58] * ElvenProgrammer * hehe exactly
[20:58] * Talaroc * wanted to discuss that in a little more depth
[20:59] * Rotonen * and we don't have a definite style when it comes to tiling, either.. :)
[20:59] * Talaroc * so, ok, Crush, i guess the best question to start with is, what's your concept for this forest area?
[20:59] * Crush * here is tha latest version of the complete set:
[20:59] * Crush * http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9796/total5wk.png
[20:59] * m[a]tt * Talaroc: 32bit should be enough
[20:59] * Talaroc * m[a]tt: 32 bit?  on what?
[21:00] * m[a]tt * the depth
[21:00] * ElvenProgrammer * ah no way the high grass need a saturation reduction
[21:00] * Crush * i think the saturation is good as it is. i wanted the tileset to have a bright and happy look like the forests from som.
[21:00] * ElvenProgrammer * Crush: a light color doesn't mean a saturated one
[21:00] * Crush * ok, the high grass may be a little bit too bright.
[21:00] * Talaroc * well, remember, not all the forests in SoM were bright and happy.  so you do have a little play room there.
[21:00] * Rotonen * the cobblestoneish surface: i think it's a bit too clean and plastic..ish..
[21:01] * Crush * cobblestoneish???
[21:01] * Rotonen * and i still don't have any definite opinions about the trees :)
[21:01] * Rotonen * the stone surface
[21:01] * Rotonen * dunno about the proper english term for that :)
[21:01] * Rotonen * cobblestone would be regular
[21:01] * Rotonen * i think
[21:01] * Crush * are you talking about the cliff walls?
[21:01] * Rotonen * let's just call it "stone surfacing" for now :P
[21:01] * Rotonen * gray, middle right in the tileset
[21:02] * Crush * oh, the stone roads
[21:02] * Crush * yes, you may be right about that.
[21:02] * Rotonen * yeah, i don't think those quite work just yet
[21:02] * Rotonen * the cliffs are nice
[21:02] * Crush * they are also a little bit too dark maybe
[21:03] * Rotonen * they're too clean: more detail and texture would improve it
[21:03] * Crush * some dithering with a light grey tone could solve both
[21:03] * Rotonen * i think we should set a standard about stone shading
[21:03] * Rotonen * i think the stones by iru are amongst the best stone shadings i've seen to date
[21:03] * Talaroc * they don't look too dark to me...
[21:03] * Talaroc * agreed
[21:03] * Crush * yes they look really good
[21:04] * Crush * but i don't think i can copy that style.
[21:04] * Rotonen * not the style, but the idea of subtle details adding up
[21:05] * Rotonen * well before i can walk around a test map i don't think i can say anything definite, which makes me not-so-well suited as the head of pixellation and that's why elven has practically taken over that department for now
[21:05] * Rotonen * so i've concentrated on conceptualization and critique
[21:05] * Talaroc * yeah.  that's one of the big things i'm having to learn as I work on the playerset: not everything that is included has to be explicitly drawn, and often the details that are subtle can have the best effect.
[21:06] * Rotonen * yeah, the unconcious mind gets fooled by good tiles: if you examine them pixel by pixel, they aren't that good and don't contain as many details as they seem to contain
[21:06] * Crush * maybe elven could code some kind of "map tester" which allows to walk a map with a character sprite"
[21:06] * Talaroc * difficult to get used to, but it improved my style tremendously.
[21:07] * Rotonen * Crush: i think we're going to have a map editor within the game eventually
[21:07] * Rotonen * we'd need to uniform the npc and the player models too
[21:07] * Rotonen * now we have a random collection of stuff, imo
[21:07] * Crush * yes, indeed
[21:07] * Crush * the npcs all look completely different
[21:08] * Crush * as if they were put together from 10 different games
[21:08] * ElvenProgrammer * adapting the npcs is the least imo
[21:08] * ElvenProgrammer * Crush: what's that test thingy?
[21:08] * Rotonen * i think he's talking aobut a dynamical map editor
[21:08] * ElvenProgrammer * as everybody should know, the priority is on the new playerset
[21:08] * Talaroc * which is amusing in its own right, but yeah.  in any event, if someone did want to start adapting some of the npc's, the standing frames of my playerset /are/ done...
[21:08] * Rotonen * within the client, i mean
[21:08] * ElvenProgrammer looks toward Talaroc :P
[21:08] * Crush * i thought of a stand alone version of the tmw client which you can run locally and load any map you want to test it
[21:09] * Rotonen * well you CAN load any map on tmw :)
[21:10] * Talaroc * and, once i get photoshop installed again, it would take me perhaps ten minutes to concoct a "child standing" sprite, and perhaps a helf hour for a good "woman standing" sprite
[21:10] * ElvenProgrammer * just replace one of the current ones
[21:10] * ElvenProgrammer * Talaroc: get the male done first, so we can start putting it in the client and working on equipments
[21:10] * Rotonen * i think we could replace the player model in the cvs with the incomplete one
[21:10] * Rotonen * leave the old ones where there are no new ones
[21:10] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: not until we have a complete one
[21:11] * Rotonen * well in the cvs version
[21:11] * Rotonen * it doesn't mean that it has to be included in the releases
[21:11] * Rotonen * it's not that hard to replace one file for the release
[21:11] * ElvenProgrammer * it is better not to, imo, but i'm sure Talaroc will send us a preview of a complete one in a couple of days :P
[21:11] * Talaroc * that'd be...interesting.  oh, by the way, about the playerset: i was playtesting the other night (hooray for the new mac version!) and noticed that the character does some strange translations when going between standing and walking.  that'll be corrected when the new set is implimented, right?
[21:12] * Rotonen * well i think i can just do it myself for my client manually then .P
[21:12] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: sure you can ;P
[21:12] * Rotonen * but so far there is no work in progress replacement set, is there? :]
[21:12] * Rotonen * at least nothing is publically available
[21:12] * ElvenProgrammer * Talaroc: well the graphics engine still need lot of improvements, but i can promise that after the new playerset will be added things will go a lot better
[21:13] * Talaroc * ok.  i just find it odd that, when you start walking, the character slides forward a few pixels, then when you stop he slides back.
[21:13] * Rotonen * btw the point of these real time chattings is the effective exchange of opinions, one tends to become blind towards his/her own flaws :)
[21:13] * Talaroc * i'm perfectly aware of my flaws.  ;)
[21:13] * Crush * by the way: do you think about supporting animated map tiles?
[21:13] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: i don't have flaws
[21:14] * ElvenProgrammer * Crush: well of course
[21:14] * Rotonen * you study too much :)
[21:14] * Talaroc * geep!  and one of mine is i'm habitually late to class.  gotta go, talk to you all later.
[21:14] * Rotonen * well for example water won't really work if it's static.. :)
[21:14] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: yeah i was thinking about leaving university and start making money exploiting tmw
[21:14] < Talaroc has left
[21:14] * Rotonen * so you finally found the loophole in gpl? :)
[21:15] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: yep but don't tell anyone
[21:15] * Crush * the loophole is quite obvious
[21:15] * ElvenProgrammer * Crush: did you create the preview using tiled?
[21:15] * Crush * i wrote a thread about how to make money with tmw in the forum
[21:15] * Rotonen * well i think we could go the star wars way: most of the star wars profits do not come from the movies, but from the accessories
[21:15] * Crush * yes, i did
[21:15] * Rotonen * ElvenProgrammer: implement in cvs and warp me there ;D
[21:15] * Rotonen * too busy with physics to do it myself
[21:16] * Rotonen * it's not fun to do the physics which happen within a digital apparatus
[21:16] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: too busy with industrial electronics to do it
[21:16] * Rotonen * hmm, i guess we're basically studying the same thing in university :)
[21:16] * ElvenProgrammer * maybe
[21:17] * Rotonen * good to know i have a good resource if i need one :)
[21:17] * Rotonen * all of my books are now in english, i'm still not used to it
[21:17] * ElvenProgrammer * Crush: anyway i'd like to ask you a complete preview of a map, so we can see what tiles are missing, first and then maybe we can start improving the current ones, i'm not satisfied completely yet
[21:17] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: mine are too
[21:17] * Crush * so you want me to make a complete map with the tiles?
[21:18] * Rotonen * ElvenProgrammer: that was kinda my point about you being a good referrence :P
[21:18] * Crush * no problem, i already made a complete test map
[21:18] * ElvenProgrammer * just a small map to test the tileset, but a complete working one
[21:18] * Rotonen * Crush: well it's the only way to see if they really work :)
[21:18] * Crush * i'll send it to you when i completed the mountains
[21:18] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: i thought you could read english :P
[21:18] * Rotonen * ElvenProgrammer: btw would your physics book be by adams and young? :]
[21:19] * ElvenProgrammer * Crush: great, it is nice to have you in our team
[21:19] * Rotonen * well the terms are quite different in finnish.. :)
[21:19] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: let me check it was 5 years ago
[21:19] * Rotonen * and my dictionaries don't cover scientific/technical english
[21:19] * Rotonen * so you don't study basic physics anymore -_-
[21:20] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: no only the first 2 years, anyway i guess my gf still owns my book
[21:21] * ElvenProgrammer * hmm since no other artists in here, have you got anything else to discuss?
[21:22] * Crush * no, i got nothing more
[21:22] * Rotonen * well about the generic style
[21:22] * m[a]tt * mh
[21:22] * m[a]tt * i want the som style.
[21:22] * Rotonen * it has to be set eventually
[21:22] * m[a]tt * and a car
[21:22] * m[a]tt * money
[21:22] * Rotonen * but how
[21:22] * m[a]tt * worldwide freedom
[21:22] ! Rotonen sets mode +m
[21:22] + Rotonen enables 'Voice' status for Crush
[21:22] * Crush * and i want a pony!!!!
[21:22] + Rotonen enables 'Voice' status for brower
[21:22] + Rotonen enables 'Voice' status for Mkael
[21:22] + Rotonen enables 'Voice' status for Modanung
[21:22] + Rotonen enables 'Op' status for MrLindeijer
[21:23] * ElvenProgrammer * m[a]tt: and you don't want voice
[21:23] * Rotonen * not in the mood today :)
[21:23] * Rotonen * what should we use as a solid referrence for the generic pixellation style?
[21:23] * ElvenProgrammer * i tryed to find a reference somewhere no success
[21:24] * ElvenProgrammer * and we should also add some license agreement post in the forum
[21:24] * Rotonen * i don't think our aimless wandering and experimenting is going to be too good on the long run
[21:24] * ElvenProgrammer * and we should talk about the event as well even though it was delayed because of the server downtime
[21:24] * Rotonen * "license agreement post" ?
[21:24] * Rotonen * for artists? :)
[21:24] * Rotonen * so what's the new event date ?
[21:25] * ElvenProgrammer * http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2014
[21:25] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: still to be defined
[21:26] * Rotonen * i think we should keep the liscensing issue on a personal level
[21:26] * Rotonen * we should actually more actively inform people about it
[21:26] * Rotonen * i've just assumed they're realizing they're contributing into a gpl'ed project
[21:26] * Crush * what? does that mean that you aren't going to pay me?
[21:26] * Crush * just kidding.
[21:27] * ElvenProgrammer * better to state it clearly before they call their lawyers
[21:27] * Rotonen * i doubt anyone would be that malicious
[21:27] * Rotonen * and i sincerely think we could settle the case by withdrawing the contributions and/or talking some sense into the person
[21:27] * Crush * oh, there are really evil people in this world...
[21:28] * Rotonen * but why would a malicious person contribute to tmw ?
[21:29] * Crush * just ask anyone whose graphics you upload to the cvs "you agree to put your work under the terms of the GPL, don't you?"
[21:29] * Crush * Rotonen: wait until we publish it and then sue us for copyright infrigment
[21:29] * Rotonen * ElvenProgrammer: so should we just continue our brave expedition into the unknown and experiment more before discarding half of the stuff as "not our style"? :P
[21:30] * Rotonen * Crush: i don't think the problem will be us using the graphics if people have contributed them in the first place
[21:30] * Rotonen * i think the problem would be us giving free access to the art for everyone to use
[21:31] * Crush * yes, we could put something like that in the terms of use of the forum
[21:31] * Crush * a sentence like "all texts and graphics published on the forum fall automatically under the terms of the GPL"
[21:32] * Rotonen * ElvenProgrammer: about the quest: place 10 npc around the maps, assign 2-3 different hints to every npc, then have one start npc in addition, then have each npc give a random hint out of the hint pool and when the player finds the next npc it gives the next random hint etc.. the quest would end on the... well.. 12th step? a cheap solution but would provide great variety
[21:32] * Rotonen * some players could even be frustrated about being bounced back and forth between 2 npc :)
[21:32] * Rotonen * so each quest would be of the relatively same difficulty level
[21:32] * Rotonen * but it would still be different for everyone
[21:33] * Rotonen * at least i would appreciate that as a player
[21:33] * Rotonen * so we just need a scripted counter per player for 10 different npc and a few different hints for the location of each npc
[21:34] * Rotonen * this would be a good time for elven to respond :P
[21:34] * Rotonen * Crush: no one reads it :)
[21:34] * Rotonen * i'm thinking about a failsafe place to put it, but i don't think there is one
[21:35] * Crush * but you can say later "you agreed to the terms, you cant complain now"
[21:36] * Crush * "when you don't read it its not my problem"
[21:36] * Rotonen * i don't want to be like that
[21:36] * Rotonen * it's an ethical question :)
[21:38] * Crush * then i think we should make clear that the copyright belongs to the author until it is uploaded to the cvs. and the artist is asked if he agrees to the terms of the gpl before his pictures are uploaded.
[21:39] * ElvenProgrammer * sorry i was helping my technology hater father
[21:39] * Rotonen * np
[21:39] * Rotonen * i'll be here for a long time tonight :)
[21:39] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: i agree with the idea, but we still need the hints and locations for the npcs
[21:42] * Rotonen * just lotto the locations
[21:42] * Rotonen * i can write the hints
[21:42] * ElvenProgrammer * lotto?
[21:43] * Rotonen * randomly place them
[21:43] * Rotonen * i thought lotto was from italy :)
[21:43] * ElvenProgrammer * well if you mean the game i guess so
[21:43] * Rotonen * but i guess one cannot use the noun as a verb in english, as one could in finnish :)
[21:43] * ElvenProgrammer * italian it's an old stupid language
[21:44] * Rotonen * "to lotto" = "to randomly fill a lotto coupon" => "to randomly place something"
[21:44] * Rotonen * that's my thought chain here
[21:44] * ElvenProgrammer * well one will be in the inn
[21:44] * Rotonen * but if you give me the locations (preferrably you export the .png out of the maps and put red numbers around), i can write the hints
[21:44] * ElvenProgrammer * a couple in the snake maps
[21:44] * Crush * lotto - the extra tax for people who are bad at math :)
[21:45] * Rotonen * since the exact location of an npc is quite crucial if one wants to give a few different hints about the same location :)
[21:46] * Rotonen * especially if there are multiple npc in the desert
[21:46] * Rotonen * i think there could also be a rule that if the player goes to a wrong npc 3 times, the quest is reset
[21:46] * Crush * and how do you want to explain that logically?
[21:47] * Rotonen * if number_of_failures >=3 then quest_fail
[21:47] * ElvenProgrammer * well i think the location is a direct consequence of the hint...
[21:47] * Crush * "you pissed me off, now i tell everyone that they don't talk with you again until you talked with the first guy"
[21:47] * Crush * doesn't seem that logically to me
[21:47] * Rotonen * Crush: it's just a game they're holding
[21:47] * Rotonen * a local tradition
[21:47] * Rotonen * and three is the magical number, you know
[21:49] * Rotonen * just an idea, though'
[21:49] * Rotonen * i think it could be too annoying
[21:49] * Rotonen * and yeah, i can place the npc too
[21:49] * Rotonen * or should we partially use existing npc?
[21:49] * ElvenProgrammer * =)
[21:49] * ElvenProgrammer * maybe having new ones could be better
[21:49] * Rotonen * true
[21:50] * Rotonen * can i be kinda zen-buddhistic about the clues? :]
[21:50] * Rotonen * "where the snake kisses the sun"
[21:50] * Rotonen * of course i can be :)
[21:50] * ElvenProgrammer * Rotonen: do whatever you want, but do it ;P
[21:50] * Rotonen * since we have no competing volunteers, i can do whatever i want as long as i do it
[21:50] * Rotonen * damn you thought it faster :P
[21:51] * Rotonen * i'll treat myself 2 apples for that
[21:51] * Rotonen * btw is the arena accessible yet ?
[21:51] * ElvenProgrammer * not yet
[21:53] # The topic is 'The Mana World Art - When Art Meets Developers :) - WARNING: next artists meeting 15th Sep 19 GMT (Your presence is required!) - http://themanaworld.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8260 | voices can be requested from the ops (duh!)' (set by Rotonen)
[21:53] * Rotonen * we could have the last step warp you into the dungeon where the prize npc would be
[21:53] * Rotonen * that'd be a good treat for the players
[21:53] < Crush has left
[21:54] ! Rotonen sets mode -m
[21:54] * maci * i wonder where we should place the warp point at .. maybe a hole somehwere in the town.. 
[21:54] * maci * i mean for the arena
[21:55] * Rotonen * or an npc in the inn saying "we have this private lounge available for visitation in the cellar, would you like for me to escort you there? unfortunately it's still a secret, so i'll have to blindfold you"
[21:55] * ElvenProgrammer * we still miss the maps to do that
[21:55] * Rotonen * 5k / visit
[21:55] * Rotonen * ;D
[21:55] * Rotonen * "no right for refund"
[21:56] * ElvenProgrammer * oh sure this way is possible
[21:56] * ElvenProgrammer * warping to the arena it's possible but the arena it's really ugly
[21:56] * Rotonen * we should have more healthy ideas
[21:56] * Rotonen * but at least thhat idea is japanese indeed.. :)
[21:57] * ElvenProgrammer * yeah ;)
[21:57] * maci * Rotonen: an d for sure you should write those ideas down ;)
[21:57] * Rotonen * i think it'd be hilarious to pay a huge sum for seeing an ugly dungeon
[21:57] * Rotonen * maci: i've written my serious ideas down :)
[21:58] * m[a]tt * test
[21:58] * m[a]tt * indeed. <--ha i can say this now
[21:59] * m[a]tt * you have to scroll up to understand it
[21:59] * m[a]tt * :>
[22:01] * Rotonen * ElvenProgrammer: deadline?
[22:02] * m[a]tt * id like a deadzone better
[22:02] * ElvenProgrammer * a week from now?
[22:03] * Rotonen * should be manageable
[22:04] * ElvenProgrammer * hope so
[22:04] * Rotonen * dunno if i'll be going to kotka this weekend though
[22:04] * Rotonen * probably not
[22:04] * m[a]tt * a deadline for what?
[22:05] ! Rotonen sets mode +m
[22:05] * ElvenProgrammer * ghghgh