Archive talk:Artist meeting 29/09/05

IRC log of the meeting:

20:55 -!- Pajarico [n=Unknow@106.Red-81-33-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #tmwart
20:58 <@ElvenProgrammer> heh
20:58 <@ElvenProgrammer> i'll be going in 15 minutes, sorry but i won't be here today, a friend needs my help
21:00 <@ElvenProgrammer> Rotonen: it's time you show your op rights ;P
21:00 <@Rotonen> ?
21:01 <@Rotonen> well no one is really here :)
21:01 -!- Nafti [n=reima_le@a81-197-156-122.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #tmwart
21:02 -!- mode/#tmwart [+v Crush] by ElvenProgrammer
21:02 -!- mode/#tmwart [+v iru] by ElvenProgrammer
21:02 -!- mode/#tmwart [+v Mkael] by ElvenProgrammer
21:02 -!- mode/#tmwart [+v Nafti] by ElvenProgrammer
21:02 -!- mode/#tmwart [+v Pajarico] by ElvenProgrammer
21:02 <+iru> :>
21:02 <+Crush> hello
21:02 <+Pajarico> hello :)
21:02 <+Nafti> hi
21:02 <@ElvenProgrammer> i count at least 4 artists
21:02 <+Crush> so rotonen will moderate this meeting?
21:03 <+iru> Crush: hope so.
21:03 <@Rotonen> ah, someone put +m here :P
21:03 -!- mode/#tmwart [-m] by Rotonen
21:03 <@Rotonen> i guess that's not necessary
21:03 <@Rotonen> i can just ban unnecessary people :P
21:03 <@ElvenProgrammer> as m[a]tt
21:03 <+Crush> matt, our favorite gaffer :)
21:03 <@ElvenProgrammer> ok let's start i think
21:03 <+iru> Rotonen: ban isnt elegant solution.
21:04 <+Crush> so, what have you done in the last week?
21:04 <@Rotonen> iru: i'm not looking for an elegant solution: i'm looking for an efficient solution :)
21:04 <@Rotonen> Crush stole my words
21:04 <+iru> Rotonen: anyway, it solution ;)
21:04 <+Crush> hehe
21:04 <@Rotonen> any unshown incomplete work or something i've missed ?
21:05 <+Modanung> Sorry yous guys for being late
21:05 <+Crush> im working on trees again. but nothing i dare to show yet
21:05 <+Crush> the whole woodland tileset is almost completed
21:05 <+Modanung> I did some concept again, uncomplete and not scanned in
21:05 <+Crush> i think i can call it ready for mapping in the next week
21:05 <+Modanung> And I went out a lot
21:06 <+iru> I'm just a bit far from developement, I'm busy because I'm moving out to studies. I think next  week will bring some fresh stuff.
21:06 <+Crush> iru: we are looking forward to it
21:06 <@Rotonen> who would be willing to put some speed into the Tulimshar city tileset development ?
21:07 <@Rotonen> so far we have very incomplete wall tiles
21:07 <+Pajarico> I have nothing to show, scanner broke
21:07 <+iru> Crush: i have some new tiles, but i left it in work, and forgot to copy
21:07 <+Modanung> Rotonen: I'd love to finish my house tiles at least
21:07 <@ElvenProgrammer> ok the meeting is over :P
21:07 <@Rotonen> nope
21:07 <+iru> Rotonen: i will help. after i finish nomad related stuff
21:07 <+Modanung> ElvenProgrammer: ass :P
21:08 <+iru> ElvenProgrammer: XD
21:08 <@Rotonen> well i don't think it's worthwhile to put every resource we have on the city
21:08 <@ElvenProgrammer> Modanung: can you scan your incomplete work?
21:08 <@Rotonen> and i've yet to see a conceptual map of the city
21:08 <+Modanung> ElvenProgrammer: Probably
21:08 <@Rotonen> and i've yet to see a conceptual map of detail of the area :)
21:08 <@ElvenProgrammer> Rotonen: what you mean by a conceptual map? the one by Modanung isn't enough? You need more detail or what?
21:08 <+Pajarico> Rotonen, ? isn't already one?
21:09 <+iru> Rotonen: i think tulimshar should be drawn by one maybe two ppl with similiar style. we should make as far as posible style unite.
21:09 <@Rotonen> of greater detail, something that would help us see what tiles we still miss
21:09 <+Modanung> OOUCH!!! Just bumped my toe into something. :X
21:09 <+Modanung> brb... I'll be scannin'
21:09 <@Rotonen> iru: i agree, but who, how, when? :)
21:09 <+Crush> i agree with iru
21:10 <+Pajarico> BTW, http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?p=9392#9392
21:10 <@ElvenProgrammer> well actually Modanung and Pajarico are working on the town
21:10 <+Pajarico> That's the aim for the "palace" right now
21:10 <+Pajarico> any problems?
21:11 <+Nafti> guess not
21:11 <+Pajarico> Nafti, ok, someone else?
21:11 <+iru> http://drnero.deviantart.com/  <- a friend of mine. i asked him for some arts for TMW (login wallpaper, splashes, etc), and now I'm looking forward for answer. I do like his style, what do u think?
21:11 <@ElvenProgrammer> Pajarico: seems fine to me
21:12 <+Pajarico> talk now or stfm forever ;)
21:12 <+Pajarico> like a wedding
21:12 <+Pajarico> ElvenProgrammer, ok
21:12 <+Crush> iru: that guy is good
21:12 <@ElvenProgrammer> iru: i love his style
21:12 <+Pajarico> then we should talk about the library
21:12 <@Rotonen> i should've made a proper list for the meeting but i've been too busy with school
21:13 <@Rotonen> iru: the style is a bit too shiny and clinical to my taste, but it's good none the less :)
21:13 <@ElvenProgrammer> iru: i suppose a login wallpaper from him would be really nice
21:13 <+Crush> i suggested to make the library interior tiles when im finished with the woodland tileset
21:14 <@Rotonen> well i'm not so sure if the library INTERIOR tiles are the greatest concern at the moment.. :]
21:14 <@ElvenProgrammer> yuyhuu my gf http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/14189816/
21:15 <+iru> :P
21:16 <@ElvenProgrammer> Rotonen: the style of this one could really fit the login screen imo http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/10298961/
21:16 <@Rotonen> ok so who is working on what at the moment ?
21:17 <@Rotonen> ElvenProgrammer: could be
21:18 <@Rotonen> <@Rotonen> ok so who is working on what at the moment ?
21:18 <@Rotonen> and a follow up question: on what are you planning on working after that?
21:19 <@Rotonen> i guess it's time to have an assignation page on the wiki since we now have over 1-2 active artists
21:19 <+Crush> im working on the woodland tileset. i already asked on the forum what to do next and im waiting for comments.
21:20 <+Crush> i'll have it ready for mapping in a week max. then i'll wait for comments from the mapper what they need or what they want to have changed.
21:20 <@Rotonen> that i know, the rest? :)
21:21 <+Crush> ask them one by one :)
21:22 <@Rotonen> i'm patient enough to wait
21:23 <+Nafti> i'm reading tutorials :)
21:23 <+Modanung> ElvenProgrammer: I think the background is too contrasty
21:24 <+Nafti> i guess i could try to improve and create general debris tiles. plain desert looks kinda boring
21:24 <+Modanung> iru: Yes, DrNero seems skilled... what the hell is he doing on DA?
21:26 <+iru> Modanung: dunno ;)
21:26 <+iru> Modanung: he makes some graphics on contests in gaia online forum
21:27 <+Modanung> http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/Modanung/leapmonster.jpg
21:27 <+iru> things on DA are just a small piece of his skills.
21:27 <+Modanung> Leaping monster concept
21:27 <@Rotonen> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/Assignation <-- let's do it this way: everyone can edit their tasks and future tasks :P
21:27 <@Rotonen> that looks.. well.. shall we say.. freudish..? :]
21:28 <+Modanung> Rotonen: What the hell do you mean by that?
21:28 <+Modanung> And:
21:28 <@Rotonen> :)
21:28 <+Modanung> http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/Modanung/Tulimshar_street.jpg
21:28 <+Modanung> Tulimshar street view concept
21:28 -!- Pajarico2 [n=Unknow@106.Red-81-33-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #tmwart
21:28 <@Rotonen> looking good so far
21:28 <+Modanung> Rotonen: You just stunned me
21:29 <+Crush> and maybe add a expected date when it is finished. needn't exact. just something like "tomorrow, next week, next december, spring 2025"
21:29 <+iru> Modanung: nice CA.
21:29 < Pajarico2> hi again
21:29 <@Rotonen> Modanung: well i'm not too sure what to think of the leapmonster :)
21:29 -!- Pajarico [n=Unknow@106.Red-81-33-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:30 < Pajarico2> someone talked about the library?
21:30 < Pajarico2> sometimes i don't know if IRC is working or not :p
21:30 <@Rotonen> looks like a flashing dane crossed with a facehugger from alien and you should know what was used as a referrence for it :P
21:31 <+Modanung> Great, isn't it? :P
21:32 <+Modanung> I don't know what got into me when I drew the mouth
21:32 <+Modanung> I sure do know what went trough my mind after I drew it. :P
21:32 < Pajarico2> Modanung, can you show me it?
21:32 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/Modanung/leapmonster.jpg
21:32 <@Rotonen> if we want to keep this as a family experience, i guess we're not implementing that without some refinements.. :)
21:33 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: And the Tulimshar street-view concept: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/Modanung/Tulimshar_street.jpg
21:34 <+Crush> i made the assignment page a table
21:34 <@Rotonen> good idea
21:35 <@Rotonen> i'm not really good with formatting :)
21:35 < Pajarico2> Modanung, the first could be an underground bug, half buried
21:35 <@Rotonen> now if everyone present would fill in their info into the assignation table? ^^
21:35 <@Rotonen> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/Assignation
21:36 < Pajarico2> Modanung, or like a chicken :D
21:37 < Pajarico2> What's the Estimated Release for my work?
21:38 <+Crush> thats what you have to know
21:38 <@Rotonen> don't fill in if you don't know :)
21:38 <@Rotonen> i'd like for that table to stay up to date
21:38 <+Crush> just say what you think when it will be finished. if you find out you can't then just correct it.
21:38 < Pajarico2> Crush, errm nope, since inthe road map doesn't tell anything about tulimshar
21:39 < Pajarico2> Rotonen, ok
21:39 <+Modanung> I made 3 artist's names links to their user pages
21:40 <+Modanung> ...and added my task ofcourse
21:40 < Pajarico2> will fill it later
21:41 <+Modanung> ...added some capitals. :S
21:41 < Pajarico2> when i finish something i will gray it out instead of erasing it, any problem?
21:41 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: No, it's even better
21:43 < Pajarico2> What's our next task? the forest devel0opment?
21:44 <+Crush> how about some forest monsters?
21:44 < Pajarico2> ok, why not :)
21:45 <+Crush> i already asked about them 3 weeks ago. some people said that they would make some. but i haven't even seen a wip shot
21:45 < Pajarico2> Crush, "some people" ?
21:45 <+Modanung> Crush: Pajarico2 did some concepts
21:45 <+Crush> concepts are good, but someone has to work on some sprites.
21:46 < Pajarico2> Modanung, what are you talking about? XD I don't remember
21:46 <+Crush> the tree thing, that haunted plant pot, that bee?
21:46 < Pajarico2> Crush, yep, the tree
21:46 < Pajarico2> i remember now, but i'm not pixel artist
21:47 <+Crush> you could learn ;)
21:49 < Pajarico2> Crush, the problem is time, i know how to draw a bit, but pixel art is another completely different thing you know, i have to start from scratch
21:49 < Pajarico2> and the monsters need animations..
21:50 < Pajarico2> when the time arrives we will assign that, we shouldn't worry about it now
21:51 <+Crush> someone else?
21:52 <+Crush> i know that 4x9 tiles for one monster sound like a lot work, but when you got the first tiles it's not that difficult to alter them for the differen animation phase
21:52 < Pajarico2> on another topic, what do you think about particle effects?
21:52 <+Crush> that's a task for programmers, not for artists. but it could look neat.
21:53 <+Modanung> Crush: If you like crappy animations animating isn't hard, that part is true. :P
21:53 < Pajarico2> Crush, yep i think
21:54 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: I loooooove particle effects
21:54 < Pajarico2> Elven is the only programmer here i think, right?
21:55 <+Modanung> Think so... or did he leave?
21:55 <+Crush> he said he would have to
21:55 < Pajarico2> Modanung, he left
21:56 <+Modanung> Ok, then there are just artists...
21:56 <@Rotonen> btw i had an idea about magical effects some time ago: we could pre-render those in 3d and then just do the animation from snapshots
21:57 <+Crush> let's annoy the programmers with the particle system at the developer meeting tomorrow
21:57 < Pajarico2> I suggested an humanoid ant (as a npc's) to Elven, but he was against of multiple races, we didn't agree thought
21:57 <+Crush> Rotonen: sounds easy and good, but does it fit into the optical style?
21:57 < Pajarico2> your thoughts?
21:57 <@Rotonen> Crush: it does if we do it that wy
21:57 <@Rotonen> way
21:58 <+Crush> can you do it?
21:58 <@Rotonen> i've been practising 3d modelling for years, but i guess i'll have to learn blender
21:59 <+Modanung> Rotonen: You can't be serious...
21:59 < Pajarico2> Rotonen, maybe with some cel-art style?
21:59 <@Rotonen> i hope no one thought that the head of art had no artistic qualities :) (i'm also a musician and a writer)
21:59 <@Rotonen> some fast rendering pseudo-cel filtering, i think
21:59 <@Rotonen> but that's a waste of resources in my opinion
21:59 < Pajarico2> http://www.paulsprojects.net/direct3d/celshading/celshading1.jpg
21:59 <+Modanung> Rotonen: Aren't you one of the guys who's been talking about sticking to SoM-style?
21:59 <@Rotonen> do it in particle effects, take the snapshots, gimp the snapshots
22:00 < Pajarico2> Rotonen, why? you are talking about animations
22:00 <@Rotonen> well at least i'm going to try :)
22:00 <@Rotonen> and i think we could use the same method for any fluids
22:00 <+Modanung> I thought about it, actually I'm reainstalling 3DsMAX 6 for that reason now... but believe me, directly using rendered stuff should be a  big no.
22:00 < Pajarico2> Rotonen, fluids=lakes surface?
22:01 <@Rotonen> for example
22:01 <@Rotonen> it's just an idea :)
22:01 < Pajarico2> Modanung, i agree, but in part
22:01 < Pajarico2> i agrree that direct rendered looks awful
22:01 <+Modanung> I thought about just using models as a reference to have model-stabilty in rotating objects
22:01 < Pajarico2> but with some filters who know?
22:01 <@Rotonen> Modanung: well using 3d rendered stuff as a basis makes it easier to produce something that fits in
22:02 <+Modanung> Like drawing with the render as a background
22:03 <@Rotonen> we'll see how that works out
22:03 <+Crush> i wouldn't use 3d renderers for tiles. you CAN see it.
22:03 <@Rotonen> Crush: just wait and see :)
22:03 <+Crush> there was that new mmorpg. it was 2d but all the tiles have been created by 3d rendering. and you can see it.
22:03 < Pajarico2> Another drawback of animations is that it takes more disk space and animations are less fluent
22:03 <@Rotonen> there's no point in arguing about this
22:03 <@Rotonen> we'll see the final results
22:04 <+Modanung> Rotonen: It's awfull
22:04 <@Rotonen> and those are all that matters :P
22:04 <+Modanung> Rotonen: (about the tiles)
22:04 <@Rotonen> i do know, but i have a few tricks up my sleave i'd like to try
22:04 <+Modanung> Rotonen: About water...
22:04 <+Modanung> I was thinking more about using particle effects
22:04 <@Rotonen> if i find the time, i could even be able to do that before christmas
22:04 <+Modanung> And refraction effects
22:04 <+Modanung> (simple ones)
22:04 < Pajarico2> BTW, someone has an example of a hand made water tile animation?
22:05 < Pajarico2> Modanung, any example?
22:05 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: Example of the refraction effect?
22:06 < Pajarico2> no about doing water with particle effects
22:06 <+Modanung> Ah
22:06 < Pajarico2> About refraction, i think i know what you mean and it would be good
22:07 <+Modanung> No examples I know of to be used in games
22:07 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: Yea, I meant more like a pixel-offset
22:07 <@Rotonen> there is simple refraction in some 3d games
22:07 <@Rotonen> and pixel-offset in 2d games
22:07 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: And I thought about this offset to be determined by 'invisible' particles
22:08 <+Modanung> That way you'd have a flow effect that isn't tile-based
22:08 < Pajarico2> ok
22:08 < Pajarico2> task for developers then
22:08 <+Modanung> Above that we could have static sparklings in the water, also with particles.
22:09 < Pajarico2> Modanung, sparklings, yep
22:09 < Pajarico2> like japanese animation
22:09 <+Modanung> Like random placed one-pixel sprites that phase for a short time
22:09 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: Exactly :)
22:09 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: Not what I was tihnking about, but it is what I mean
22:10 <@Rotonen> the idea is good, perhaps even worth implementing
22:10 < Pajarico2> ok, another topic:
22:10 < Pajarico2> whats the weather like in tulimshar?
22:11 <@Rotonen> ~360 dry days in a year?
22:11 <@Rotonen> on our scale, that is :P
22:12 < Pajarico2> Rotonen, well, i mean, there are cold nights?
22:13 <+Modanung> Rotonen: Well lots of parts of the idea could be used elsewhere: flow-direction for bird flocks and lava... refraction for spell effects, glass and maybe even monsters... and the sparklings are simple particle placements.
22:13 <@Rotonen> well if it's dry, it usually gets relatively chilly in the nights
22:13 <@Rotonen> so i guess yes
22:13 <+Modanung> Rotonen: Are we going to have day/night cycles?
22:13 <+Modanung> Rotonen: And varying weather?
22:14 <+Crush> the weather? in a desert town?
22:14 <@Rotonen> i'd like to see day/night and varying weather
22:14 < Pajarico2> I'm asking this because the houses are realtive to the weather
22:14 <+Modanung> Crush: I meant on a global/game scale
22:14 <@Rotonen> but day/night would be kinda annoying when done realistically :P
22:14 <+Crush> yes, but can we make it technically?
22:15 <+Modanung> Rotonen: You mean with the screen becoming pitch black? :P
22:15 <+Crush> changing daytime also would mean changing the light direction
22:15 <@Rotonen> Crush: elven said that the art department doesn't have to worry about the technical stuff :)
22:15 <@Rotonen> Modanung: no, about shops being closed nighttime
22:15 <+Modanung> Crush: It doesn't have to be that realistic
22:15 < Pajarico2> and should the players have coal or something for heating? do they need chimneys and fireplaces for heating or cooking?
22:16 <@Rotonen> it's yet to be determined how realistically the world is going to be put together
22:16 < Pajarico2> Anyway i have to go
22:16 < Pajarico2> bye
22:16 <@Rotonen> i'd like for the world to have a b&w ish reality beneath the surface
22:16 <+Modanung> Pajarico2: Bye
22:16 <+Modanung> Rotonen: Errr?
22:17 <@Rotonen> b&w had a good system on paper
22:17 <@Rotonen> i'd like to have something that works :)
22:17 <+Modanung> Rotonen: Ah ok, now I get what you mean :)
22:17 -!- Mkael [i=jerico@adsl-237-138.kymp.net] has quit ["Client Exiting"]
22:18 <+Modanung> Rotonen: You mean like the NPC's leading a life?
22:18 <@Rotonen> yeah
22:18 <@Rotonen> and the world actually working on individually even without the players
22:18 <+Modanung> As long as they can't be killed :P
22:18 <@Rotonen> and that npc and players would be equal
22:18 <+Modanung> Hhmmm...
22:19 <+Modanung> I think we'd need really good system designers for that, hard to get it balanced.
22:19 <+Crush> yes! equal rights for npcs! stop the oppression!
22:19 <+Modanung> Or you'd have to limit it a bit
22:19 <@Rotonen> well not fully implemented, a limited system
22:19 <@Rotonen> yeah
22:19 <@Rotonen> some AI for the npc
22:19 <@Rotonen> some basic needs and stuff
22:19 <+Modanung> Crush: Most NPC's are immortal, I suppose they shouldn't whine.
22:19 <@Rotonen> you know where i'm headed, right? :P
22:20 <@Rotonen> something to keep the economy alive
22:20 <+Modanung> Rotonen: NPC's crawling between their cartboardbox and the bar... yea I hear ya.
22:21 <+Modanung> Which gets me to the subject of love...
22:21 <+Modanung> Will it be in the game?
22:21 <+Modanung> And can you marry NPC's?
22:21 <+Modanung> Are we going to allow homosexuality? :P
22:21 <@Rotonen> i think that'd be kinda.. well..
22:22 <+Modanung> I'd love to mary ElvenProgrammer in-game ;)
22:22 <+Crush> "hey, blacksmith trainer, you cheated on me with the potion vendor!"
22:22 <@Rotonen> you could kinda do that in gta: san andreas and look at what happened.. :]
22:22 <+Modanung> Rotonen: I shot my first gf after she gave me the pimp-suit
22:23 <+Modanung> Crush: Hehe, yea :P
22:23 <+Modanung> Crush: The blacksmith would probably have a fetish for leather though
22:24 <+Modanung> Rotonen: I think we should at least implement hugging though. I'm still pro-hugging! :P
22:25 <@Rotonen> i think you get to do our weekly cartoon strip before that gets approval :)
22:25 <@Rotonen> it's a nice idea per se
22:25 <@Rotonen> but.. :)
22:28 <+Modanung> But what?
22:29 -!- m[a]tt [i=Matt@p5497555B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit]
22:32 <@Rotonen> think of all the people misusing that :P
22:32 <@Rotonen> i guess hugging could be limited to people with some closer ties with each other
22:32 <@Rotonen> so they at least have to be in the same party
22:32 <@Rotonen> or something :)
22:37 <+Crush> seems we are finished for today
22:37 <+Crush> i'll get back to my trees
22:37 <+Crush> good night